There’s a set of 22 questions floating around the internet, posted by Brett Keane and aimed at subscribers to various religious ideologies as well as atheists. I think it’s a worthwhile exercise responding to these questions as they tend to come up time and time again.
- Where do you get your morality from, and please explain your morality.
The popular, but incorrect concept that morality is dependant on religion is one of the hurdles atheists must overcome in order to be openly welcomed by the masses. The idea that morality can be controlled by the fear of reprisal (as pushed by the major religions – don’t do these things or you’ll go to hell) or the promise of reward (do as we say and you’ll get into Heaven) is dangerous. It encourages extremism, just look at what Muslim extremists will do to make the acquaintance of virgins. Morality born out of this carrot and stick approach inevitably leads to selfish endeavours.I’d also like to point out that traditional religion based morality is strict and inflexible. Instead, my morality is free-flowing and adaptive. I can approach situations in a more flexible way, and make a judgement on the impact of my actions. And that’s what drives my morality, the underlying question “what affect will my actions have on others?”. It’s also important to note that there is a base level of morality built into our personalities that has evolved with us as a species. It’s foundations are preservation of the species and can be found in most, if not all, living creatures. It’s the reason packs of animals hunt other species and not their own. It establishes a hierarchy of importance to the individual, from direct blood relations and partners, to pack, to species and beyond. Therefore, preservation of those important to us is always the foundation on one’s morality.
- Why do you accept evolution? Explain how you came to your conclusions.
Quite simply, there’s a mountain of evidence to support evolution. From laboratory recreated speciation, evidence within our own bodies (for example, the Palmaris Longus muscle), to the fossils of intermediate species and some key finds like Ida. It seems unthinkable that anyone could, at this stage, dismiss evolution.
- What is the meaning and purpose of your life?
Life is what you make of it. I don’t believe I was put here to fulfil some unknown purpose nor do I believe that my life inherently as a meaning. I try to make the most of my life and to not do things which I would consider morally objectionable. I’m not arrogant enough to believe anything beyond that. - What is the greatest thing you have ever done for others?
This is a difficult question to answer. While I may perceive my actions to be beneficial to others, I’m not arrogant to know that they are. I’d really have to go and ask the people who were affected by my perceived good deeds. It’s entirely possible that an act that I didn’t perceive to be beneficial to others, actually was. - Would you kill for atheism?
It would be easy to flippantly say no, but I can see situations in which killing is justified (see my points on morality above). For example, if we lived in a society that was suppressing free thought and free will, which may include atheism (or any number of theisms), an uprising may be the only way. This wouldn’t be killing in the name of atheism however, but rather in the name of freedom. Clearly atheism would never be the sole motivating factor, it would have to be a combination of factors. And in truth, I think it very very unlikely, but you just don’t know until your put in a position where your freedom is under threat. - Why are you an atheist and consider your position valid?
I’m an atheism because, in my opinion, it’s the only viable stance. I’ve been an atheism for a very long time. I remember being in school, when they made us pray, thinking that it was ridiculous. This was probably from the age of 6 or 7. The more I learned about religion, the more I disliked it and everything it stood for. And that didn’t stop at the predominant religion in my school, family and neighbourhood (Christianity), but as I learned of, and about, other religions, I disliked them an equal amount. Arguing why atheism is valid seems pointless. It should not be the point of the atheist to argue the validity of non-belief of something there is absolutely no evidence for, the onus should be on those who make the fantastical claims. - If you died and discovered a god existed, what would you say to he/she/it?
This largely depends on which God I met. I have some questions for the specific Gods as proposed in the major mono-theistic religions, after all, they have a lot to answer for, but a general, non-specific God? Apart from the obvious (where did you come from? What are your plans for the future? Why did you create us, the world, the universe? etc.), I don’t really know. It would probably depend on the nature of the God and its demeanour. - What religion is more dangerous in your eyes today and in the past?
In the past, Christianity without a doubt. Currently, probably Islam, although the two are heavily interrelated. The oppression of Islam by the Western world under a thinly veiled banner of a Christian crusade has been highlighted as a key trigger for some of the Islamic extremists. It’s easy to point the finger, however, but in reality, any religion can give birth to extremism, and extremism can only be viewed as dangerous. You could also make the argument that any person who believes in something for which there is no evidence is potentially dangerous and unpredictable. - Name 3 peaceful religions you have no issue with.
For the above reasons, I have issues with all religions. - What would it take to believe in a God?
I’ve already covered this. - Would the world be a better place without religion?
Absolutely. Many more people are hurt by religion than benefit from it. - How do you feel about government and politics?
Many people ask me why I run this blog, and why atheists are growing more vocal. This is the reason. In general, we don’t have any issues with people believing anything they want to believe. What we do have an issue with is the pushing of those beliefs on to others. When religion penetrates government, the pushing of beliefs tends to happen on a grand scale. Looking back at the Bush years, we can all see the impact of religious driven policies which resulted in two wars (three if you count the absurd “War on Terror”) and a lack of oversight that resulted in the collapse of the economy. The underlying problem is that the decisions of governments should not be based on religion.
- If you could go back in time and kill Hitler/Stalin as babies so they will never kill the millions in the future, would you do it if time travel was possible?
This isn’t an easy question to answer. I could flippantly say yes, but as time travel isn’t possible, we just don’t know what the impact would be. We don’t know whether stopping Hitler would allow an even more despicable person to take their place. Time travel sounds risky, even in these situations.
- Why is stem cell research so important?
Anything that improves our knowledge, and assists in the formulation of the prevention and cure of ailments seems like a good idea. The nature of embryonic stem cells, particularly their ability to develop into multiple other types of cells and the fact that they renew themselves. I don’t see any moral issues with stem cell production (for the same reason I have no objection to abortion or contraception) but I’m hopeful that alternative methods of extraction and production can be found, if only to placate the current moral objectors. - Is abortion evil?
No. I do not subscribe to the idea that it is better to birth a child into a miserable existence than not. - What would the circumstances be for you to approve of torture as an individual?
Currently available evidence strongly suggests that torture simply does not work. Morally, I’m not comfortable with the idea of torture, practically and logically, I don’t think you can trust or rely on the results of torture. Therefore, not only do I not think it’s morally effective, I also do not think it’s effective. - Should we try to save animals from going extinct?
I don’t know, and I’m not afraid to admit that. One may argue that we should try to save species that are becoming extinct because of our actions, or that we should adjust our actions to limit the affect on the animal kingdom, but I don’t know enough to make a call. After all, natural selection and evolution dictates that the strongest tend to survive, so one might also argue that species that become extinct, regardless of the cause, do so because they are not strong enough to survive their changing environment. - Do you approve of capital punishment? Explain.
Another difficult one. This depends on three factors. Firstly, the burden of proof has to be beyond any doubt. Secondly, the grade of the act which is being punished has to be severe. Thirdly, the person who performed the act has to be shown to be beyond rehabilitation and proven to be capable and likely to re-offend. Practically, there’s no way those three conditions will ever be met, so no, I don’t. - Do you believe in aliens, ghosts, spirits, souls, any supernatural forces?
With the exception of aliens, absolutely not. It seems odd to group aliens with that company as they almost certainly wouldn’t be supernatural. It seems unlikely, given the potential size of the universe and number of planets, that we are alone. There is no evidence to support alien life at the moment so I wouldn’t try and claim it exists. What I would say however, is that statistically it seems more likely than not. - Would you sacrifice yourself for a loved one with a chance you may end up on hell for being atheist?
I think you’ve just hit on one of the dichotomies of religion. If I performed a noble, “good” act a religious God would still punish me for not worshipping them. In the eyes of the major religions, a good person is mostly judged based on their enthusiasm of worship, not the deeds they perform. I could save the lives of a thousand innocent babies and still go to hell for not believing in an invisible, unprovable Sky God. So yes, I would. And if I had to answer to a God after I died I’d question where they got their morals from. - Explain in detail the process of death.
The process of death? The shut down of the major organs including the brain and heart. Cardiac arrest, the cessation of electrical activity in the brain, no longer responding to stimulus and so on. - Have you ever been dead?
Not since I was conceived, no.
I hope I’ve not been too controversial, not that it would be the first time. Atheist, or theist, what are your responses to the questions?
“God would still punish me for not worshipping them.”
You’re obviously a smart guy but my oh my you’ve missed this one by a couple light-years. The ONLY reason that some people will be refused entrance to heaven is because they refused the offer of salvation. Because you and I and everyone else on this planet begins with a “fail” when it comes to morality, i.e., being good enough to be good enough for heaven, one’s degree of goodness has nothing to do with it. It’s like you have 20 people in the ocean after a ship’s sinking. There are two life boats with twenty spots that are still open. Regardless of how many babies you’ve saved or how many babies you’ve killed, reaching out to grab the hand extended to save you OR pushing away the hand extended to save you is the only deciding factor as to whether you will live or die. This is an admittedly imperfect analogy but the principle is the same.
And what would accepting salvation involve, makarios? Accepting God, worshipping him/her/it/them? I’m offered “salvation” every day through comments on this blog, emails, in person and all sorts of other means. The fact is, for the major religions, if you don’t subscribe to their particular God, you don’t get in to their particular heaven. There’s no difference between what I said, and what you said.
Do you not think it odd that an all great, powerful, merciful God would care more about whether a person believed in them, and worshipped them (like a petulant, attention starved child), than whether they were a good or a bad person? That’s not a God I want to know, nor accept.
“And what would accepting salvation involve, makarios?”
An admission that you are a sinner in need of forgiveness. That you ask Jesus to forgive your sins and accept His Lordship over your life.
The worship of God is simply an outflow of the recognition that I, a sinner, deserving of eternal separation from Creator God has been forgiven and freed from real guilt.
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“That’s not a God I want to know, nor accept.â€
Then DON’T accept Him! Good grief man, why do you go on and on and on about this God you don’t believe in, like an attention starved atheist?
Accept his Lordship over my life? Well, so long as it’s not “worship” then. You can call a table a flujibol, but it’s still a table.
I’ll do you a deal. When arrogant, self-righteous theists stop offering me “salvation”, and stop interfering with education and governmental policies and processes, I’ll stop writing about atheism (and theism). How’s that sound? And if I were attention seeking, I’d probably not be writing under a pseudonym, that tends to be the action of someone who wants to avoid attention.
Ok, i know this is an old post but i completely agree with one point on the atheist. i am a christian but i hate it when other Christians shove Jesus and God down atheists throats! Yes you need to know God in a personal way, maybe your a sinner and maybe you aren’t but if i shove it down your throat you’ll shove it back at me with hatred. i don’t enjoy how Christianity has become in most of the world but to The Atheist, if you do see the light, please consider it and not shove it away at first glance. but i am not saying you have to accept it, it is your personal decision.
. Admit that you are a sinner in need of forgiveness.
. Ask Jesus to forgive your sins
. Accept His Lordship over your life.
Not one of those involves worship.
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Salvation takes place in a moment of time. Worship takes place over a lifetime.
A person will not and cannot do the latter without the former.
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If you think that Christians are “self-righteous” I don’t think you understand the concept of self-righteousness nor what’s entailed in becoming a Christian, and of course you still do not have a clue what it means to worship.
Becoming a follower of Jesus is not for the faint of heart. Personally, I don’t think you’re up for it. But then, neither have you been invited so don’t worry about it.
Here’s what Wikipedia has to say about Worship:
“Worship literally means “worth-ship”. Giving worth to something.[1] In its older sense in English of worthiness or respect (Anglo-Saxon,worthscripe), worship may on occasion refer to an attitude towards someone of immensely elevated social status, such as a lord or a monarch, or, more loosely, towards an individual, such as a hero or one’s lover.
‘Worship’ is quite often used to refer to acts, expressions and/or a state of religious devotion typically directed to one or more deities.”
So that would more or less make you incorrect.
By putting faith into your deity and ascribing divine importance to it, you are in effect Worshiping that deity. Even if it’s just for a moment.
Becoming a follower of Jesus is not for the faint of heart. Personally, I don’t think you’re up for it. But then, neither have you been invited so don’t worry about it.
I disagree. I think becoming a follower of Jesus, or any other cult figure or religion is nothing but weakness of character. The actions of those faint of heart. Someone who looks at the empirical evidence of the world surrounding them and closes their eyes, and tells their imaginary friend to make it all better.
Self-righteousness generally means a feeling of superiority based on one’s actions, beliefs or morals. You believe you will get into heaven because you have accepted a deity. You offer “salvation” to others. Why would you offer salvation to someone unless you felt you were better than them, superior to them?
As for worship, as Jarael has pointed out, simply by acknowledging the existence of a deity, you are worshipping them.
This tactic of many theists, to claim that words don’t actually mean what words mean because they don’t like the connotations, isn’t new. In fact, we’ve come across it on this very blog previously, where a commenter tried to claim that Christianity wasn’t a religion. Despite it neatly and completely fitting in to the dictionary, common and publicly accepted definition of what a religion is. You are doing the same thing. Ask any sane, rational person whether they think you are “worshipping” or not, and there’s little doubt in my mind that they’ll agree that you are.
If you truly believe that to be the case, then answer me this. Why do yo consider it more noble and brave to believe your life is controlled by some supernatural being than it is to simply take responsibility for your own life and face up to your actions? You truly believe that asking for forgiveness from your deity will get you into heaven, and that you will be forgiven. This absolves you of all responsibility in your life. You are answerable to no one (except your non-existent deity). Atheists accept responsibility for their actions, theists just believe it’s all part of some mysterious “plan”. In the example you gave elsewhere on this page, about accidentally killing a child, an atheists would seek forgiveness from the parents and family and offer support. A theist would just accept it’s all part of “God’s Will”, seek forgiveness from their God and move on. Who is the real coward, he who accepts responsibility for his actions, or he who blames a mystical sky being for everything that goes wrong in their life and then seeks forgiveness at some arbitrary point?
You really don’t get it do you? Wiki is absolutely correct and I am not wrong.
Picture this! In an act of carelessness, it’s not an accident but carelessness, you drive over and kill your neighbour’s two-year-old child. You back up the length of her body and right on over her head. The child’s six-year-old brother sees it happen from just three metres away, and her mother watches it happen from just eight metres away. How would you feel? How would you feel knowing that you had crushed the life out of a small child? How would you feel when you turn to tell the parents of the child how sorry you are for what you’ve done?
THAT is what it’s like to come face to face with the reality of self when Jesus opens one’s eyes to the need for forgiveness.
Would you describe what you’re feeling as you look into the parent’s eyes (if you’re even able to meet their eyes) an act of worship? Or would you experience feelings of remorse, guilt and conviction that you were in the wrong and that while you wanted forgiveness you in no way deserved forgiveness? You haven’t got the slightest clue.
. Salvation is what happens in the moment of asking for forgiveness.
. Worship is the action that follows receiving a forgiveness that you in no way deserved.
You and I both deserve to be punished – for eternity. Only one of us has asked for forgiveness so only one, at least at this point in time, is able to receive forgiveness.
How in the world do you think you can tell if someone else has gone down a difficult road when you are too chicken shit to try that road yourself? Atheists! They sit in front of their computers whining about people saying Merry Christmas. Who do you think you are to assume that you can tell if another’s road is easy or not? Becoming a Christian entails NO promises of God “making it all better.” In fact, Jesus promises that becoming a Christian will mean experiencing challenges like you never dreamed possible and I for one will say, that Boy was telling the truth.
There you are hiding behind some initials talking about how others are weak for stepping into the blast. Pfft!
Well, lets answer that first question.
First of all, carelessness is still an accident. If it were not, it would imply intent, would which be murder, or at least manslaughter. So it IS an accident if you did not intend to do it. I would of course, feel quite terrible as I imagine anyone would. Ending the life of another human being is an upsetting and disturbing thing. I would of course apologize. However, I would also know that my apology is meaningless. It won’t bring their daughter back. They aren’t going to look at me and honestly say, “oh, well, I forgive you for killing my little girl, lets just go on our merry ways.” Of course not. However, there is no worship here. I am not “worth-giving”
I already understand the loss they’ve suffered from my carelessness. I do not need to ascribe any worth to the situation. It holds all it’s own weight. The weight of her parents tears, her older brothers shock and horror at what happened. Her broken body on the roadway.
Salvation, as you put it, is when you give worth to a higher power that you have faith exists. You are “worth-giving” by asking for forgiveness from an invisible being. You have to give worth to it, because it has none on it’s own.
Forgiveness. That’s an interesting one. Let me ask you this. Deserving or not, lets say you suffer the same tragedy as you described to me. Who should be giving forgiveness? The parents, or Jesus? Who has the right to forgive what you did? It’s the parents, of course. You wronged them. You took their little girl from them. It was a terrible accident, and one you likely could have prevented. Jesus doesn’t have any right to forgive you in place of them. Not at all. You have no right to receive forgiveness if the ones you hurt won’t give it. Asking Jesus for forgiveness is like asking the 7/11 attendant to forgive you for killing your wife. He has nothing to do with it. It’s merely you, overcome by guilt, attempting to make yourself feel better by imagining some all-power savior who can absolve you of anything. It’s juvenile fantasy. In the real world, we live with what we did. We don’t pass it off onto our imaginary friends.
You and I both deserve to be punished – for eternity. Only one of us has asked for forgiveness so only one, at least at this point in time, is able to receive forgiveness.
I am so sorry my friend. I do not know what you have done, that is so horrible, so universe shattering that it deserves an eternity of infinite punishment. But it must truly be horrendous. I however, have lived but a finite life, and will one day die. My crimes, and sins, no matter how grave are yet finite and thus, only an unjust and ignoble god would punish me for eternity. I will not ask forgiveness for what I have done, because it cannot be awarded simply by asking. There is a saying; “Forgiveness lies in the heart before it ever reaches the tongue.” If I am to be forgiven, it will be by the will of those I have wronged, and not because I selfishly wish to sidestep justice.
How in the world do you think you can tell if someone else has gone down a difficult road when you are too chicken shit to try that road yourself? Atheists! They sit in front of their computers whining about people saying Merry Christmas.
Because I already have. I was raised Christian. I lived as one, under their ways and teachings for almost 20 years. I’ve walked that road and it leads to nothing but emptiness, judgment and false hope. Christians! They sit in their pews with their Bibles telling themselves how righteous they are, and thinking that no one who joined their ranks would ever see the light and turn their back on the madness of blind faith. I have seen the light, my friend. My eyes have been opened. There is more to this life then the incoherent ramblings of men dead almost two millennia.
Who do you think you are to assume that you can tell if another’s road is easy or not? Becoming a Christian entails NO promises of God “making it all better.†In fact, Jesus promises that becoming a Christian will mean experiencing challenges like you never dreamed possible and I for one will say, that Boy was telling the truth.
I know you tell yourselves that when things are hard. You tell yourself that God has a plan for you, that you are being tested, that you will be rewarded for your faith. And that really only strengthens the fact that you use him as a fall back. You lean on your imaginary friend when you are stressed or upset. Because you, unlike everyone else, cannot simply handle life as it comes to you. You make up a method of coping. It’s because you are weak. You are not strong enough to stand without your imaginary support constructs. “Jesus, Salvation, God, Heaven, Forgiveness.” And you ask yourself how anyone else could live without it! It’s because they are strong, functional human beings who are able to live their lives with total responsibility.
There is another kind of person who concocts delusions to support themselves in times of deep psychological and emotional stress or to deal with deep seated psychological trauma. Especially that relating to abuse, whether from their parents or other authority figures at a young age. Schizophrenia of course, is an extreme example, but it well illustrates how people, after being abused by someone they trusted begin to construct an alternative, subjective reality in which they can escape the pressures and anxieties of the real world. Religion is simply a less severe case of this. You invent a god to protect you from the unknown, to give you a strong father figure because your own father never gave you his acceptance or let you down in some way that scarred you for life. You invent a savior because you want to feel special, to feel like someone has chosen you out of the billions of people on this planet to be different and go and live in his magical sky kingdom forever and ever, amen.
If I told you that Kuthoral’ark, the Mighty Space Lord of Chaugcal, a mystical world of plenty and happiness, had personally visited me, told me that all I needed to do was to accept that I was a filthy human and needed to be forgiven of my existence-crime so that when I died, he would whisk me a way to Chaugcal and insisted this was true, while forcing it on other people loudly and unwantedly, telling them they would go to Lacguahc, the invisible pit of torment and death if they did not too renounce their existence-crime, they would lock me up in a mental institution. Or at the very least, put me on drugs until I was better
But if you say that Jesus will take you to heaven, if you ask for the forgiveness for being a human being and preach on the street, go to peoples houses and tell them that they are going to go to hell and be punished forever if they don’t repent too, I’m just a Christian.
Religion is a widely accepted form of true madness. I hope one day we find a cure for it.
Okay, I really want to know, do you have any idea what your talking about? Not all Christians are like your preconcived idea. Not all of us sit in our pews with our Bibles telling oursevlves how rightious we are. I most deffinatly am NOT one of those. First of all, at my church we don’t have pews, we have big plastic chairs. And my church isn’t really a church building; it’s more like a barn. Second of all, I have NEVER sat around and told myself how rightious I am. Neither has anyone else I ever knew, least of all my mother. Oh, and another thing, the path of Christianity is not filled with nothing but emptiness, judgement and false hope. True, it’s filled with a lot of hardships, but God never said it was gonna easy. And those hardships are ment to make us stronger, not to weaken us. In my personal opinion, athiests who were formally Christians weren’t really Christians at all. Christianity is not something you do, but something you accept. You can’t just try it for a while and then give it up because you didn’t like it. It’s something you’ve gatta stick to, and try your hardest at. Look at what Jesus did just so you could have eternal life and happiness. He came down from His home in heaven to be born into poverty and hardship. Then He grew up and did a lot of teaching for a while, was arrested, got almost all the life beaten out of Him, and then was nailed to a cross and crucified. (That was the most humiliating and painful way to die back then.) He even rejected a form of pain relief. And His own father turned His back on Him, He was so covered with sin. He did all that just so you go to live in heaven with Him. i you ask me I think that is the most selfless act of kindness in the entire history of the world. If there’s anyone whose acting selfrightious here, I think it’s you.
“First of all, carelessness is still an accident.â€
Ya, I should have thought that through better. The analogy as a whole was pretty poor. But I see you got the gist of it anyhow.
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“You are “worth-giving†by asking for forgiveness from an invisible being.â€
Well, I see describing worship to an atheist is like describing snow to someone who has never seen it or touched it. I won’t go there any more.
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“Who has the right to forgive what you did?â€
Forgive me if I’m telling you something that you already know. In the Old Testament there is an account of a King named David. He was one of Israel’s greatest kings. As you are acutely aware, religious people sometimes screw up and this guy screwed up big-time. He took another man’s wife, got her pregnant and had her husband killed. Here’s a guy who’d hurt his family, her family, her husband’s family and who knows how many others. And what does he say to God? “Against you and you only have I sinned.†I’m trying to keep this short, really I am. Like that accident that killed the child, David and the driver of the car have committed two acts of wrong, one against the family here on earth and one against Creator God. You word your comment as though Christians believe all they have to do is say I’m sorry and all is well. Nope. Everyone suffers the earthly consequences of what we do. Backing over the child might mean jail time or a law suit whereby you lose everything as well of living with what you’ve done. God said to King David, you will lose your kingdom to your sons, your sons will be killed in battle and your own sons will attempt to kill you. We might wrong others. We may or may not ask for their forgiveness. But when we harm others we also sin against our Creator and require His forgiveness.
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“We don’t pass it off onto our imaginary friends.â€
Well, of course if God does not exist then that’s all it is. You think I’m wrong and I think you’re wrong. Regardless, asking God for forgiveness is not simply “passing it off.†Without remorse there is no repentance. Without repentance there is no forgiveness.
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“If I am to be forgiven, it will be by the will of those I have wronged, and not because
I selfishly wish to sidestep justice.â€
Good luck with that!
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“They sit in their pews with their Bibles telling themselves how righteous they are,â€
I would suggest that line alone shows you didn’t have the slightest clue what was going on. You were a pretender, a fraud, someone going through the motions, dare I say it? A hypocrite.
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“It’s because you are weak. You are not strong enough to stand without your imaginary support constructs.â€
Of course I don’t believe that our Creator is imaginary but yes, yes, a thousand times yes, in myself I am weak. But with Christ I don’t believe that there is anything that can rock my foundations. We’ve had children die, one suffering permanent brain damage, another child that functions in the bottom 5th percentile intellectually (If you have kids you’ll have some idea of the pain and rejection that comes with that load) I’m not going to go on and on about the things we’ve experience that many people call tragedy and suffering but I could. Yet my Lord and Saviour sustains me through it all. I’ve never been stronger or more confident in my whole life, but it’s Jesus, all Jesus, and I’m not afraid to say it. If you’re strong and doing well on your own, then good for you. Go enjoy this portion of your life as best you can.
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“because your own father never gave you his acceptance or let you down in some way that scarred you for life.â€
First of all, I’m quite aware of what delusions are about. It was my career. I’ve worked with several thousand people like that. As to my dad? I doubt that more than 10% of children have had a dad a good as mine. He was a man of integrity, kindness, gentleness and respectful to all he met. My dad was a strong, strong man of God.
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Well, I see describing worship to an atheist is like describing snow to someone who has never seen it or touched it. I won’t go there any more.
It’s a cold white powder that falls from the sky slowly and sticks to the ground when it’s cold enough and will melt if exposed to heat.
That’s a pretty rudimentary explanation, but it’s enough that you get the picture. The truth is, that as an Atheist and a former Theist I know all too well what you mean by worship. It feels like an intensely personal, intimate thing. However, once you realize what’s going on, once you let go of your delusions of god, you will find that those feelings can be found elsewhere, and in far more gratifying quality. Love with a woman or a man, meditation, inner peace. We have within us the capacity to exist without requiring gods. Perhaps the real tragedy here is that you’ve never experienced that yourself.
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But when we harm others we also sin against our Creator and require His forgiveness.
Ah, I remember that story from Sunday School. You know what though? David was a jerk. He took on the responsibility of King and used it to kill some guy and take his wife. And then, finally, when he realized what happened, who did he apologize to? The being that was the least effected by his actions. He even goes so far as to say that ONLY god was effected by what he did. Not say, Bathsheba or the family of Uriah the Hittite. Here’s the thing though, when you pretend your imaginary friend can take away your sins, you are fundamentally saying that you don’t want guilt. You don’t want to feel bad about what you did. But here’s the thing, the kicker. We have free will, god made us that way, right? And he is all powerful and eternal, right? So we are unable to hurt him. Because, if we COULD hurt him, he wouldn’t be all powerful, right? So our actions, should not effect him in any way other than that which he chooses. So either A) We cannot hurt god and do not need to apologize to him for anything (After all, he gave us license to do as we will) or B) He allows our actions to hurt him, which means he’s selfish and he WANTS us to have to BEG for his forgiveness. Allow me to quote some scripture, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” Romans 3:23 “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” John 14:6 “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Romans 6:23
So as you can see, god has arranged it so that everyone will sin, and everyone will go to hell unless they apologize to him for being imperfect as he made us. In essence, he condemned you and me to hell before we were even born. To exist is to sin against him.
The only rational conclusion is this: Your god is imperfect and desires our attention and apology like some petulant, spoiled little child. Failing that he will torment you for eternity because he made you evil to begin with.
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Well, of course if God does not exist then that’s all it is. You think I’m wrong and I think you’re wrong. Regardless, asking God for forgiveness is not simply “passing it off.†Without remorse there is no repentance. Without repentance there is no forgiveness. It’s a get out of jail free card. All you have to do is say “Jesus, I’m sorry about all the stuff I did, please forgive me?” And bam, clean slate. Doesn’t matter if you’re Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, Ted Bundy, Waneta Hoyt or any other sick fuck. Otherwise, how do you know you’re going to heaven? Maybe you were remorseful enough, deep down and when you die god will say “Well, you said all the right stuff and you cleaned up your act, but I don’t think you were ever REALLY TRULY sorry for stealing your brothers baseball mitt. Have fun in hell.” But I mean, are you really saying that Jeffrey Dahmer is in heaven but the Dalai Lama is going to hell? If you’re right, that means god isn’t just at all. He’ll give anyone who asks a free pass. That’s not justice, it’s favoritism. So you’d better be wrong, because if that’s the kind of god that’s running everything, we won’t need an adversary like Satan.
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I would suggest that line alone shows you didn’t have the slightest clue what was going on. You were a pretender, a fraud, someone going through the motions, dare I say it? A hypocrite.
That is sort of my point, makarios. Christians are either frauds, or mentally deficient in some way. The frightening thing is how adept they are at lying to themselves. Because, be honest, it makes you feel better to have a big tough god to help you through everything and love you unconditionally and prepare a place for you in heaven, doesn’t it? How many times have you silently wondered: how do non-Christians deal with this without god? You chose Christianity because it appealed to your weakness. On some level, you know that’s true. On some level you know it has nothing to do with a “genuine experience” or finding the “right religion.” In your case, I’m guessing it was fear of change. You were raised to believe, so of course it’s going to be firmly in your psyche. I know what you mean. I remember having the faith of a child, being wholly unable to question what I was experiencing. On the same token, I believed in a lot of things then. I had imaginary friends too. As I grew older, I put aside my childish ways and begin to see things as they were. Not everyone did. I delved into science, math, reason, logic, philosophy, amongst other subjects. I began to see both the fallacy of a Christian god and the fallacy of religion. A Christian god, so full of contradiction, lies and injustice that he simply cannot exist. Religion, the crutch of the emotionally and mentally frail. You call me a hypocrite, and you’re right. I was. I believed in Jesus and a Christian god and the bible. Have you even read that book? It’s rife with hypocrisy. Jesus is a hypocrite, even your god is a hypocrite. If you’d like, I can point these places out for you.
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Of course I don’t believe that our Creator is imaginary but yes, yes, a thousand times yes, in myself I am weak. But with Christ I don’t believe that there is anything that can rock my foundations. We’ve had children die, one suffering permanent brain damage, another child that functions in the bottom 5th percentile intellectually (If you have kids you’ll have some idea of the pain and rejection that comes with that load) I’m not going to go on and on about the things we’ve experience that many people call tragedy and suffering but I could. Yet my Lord and Saviour sustains me through it all. I’ve never been stronger or more confident in my whole life, but it’s Jesus, all Jesus, and I’m not afraid to say it. If you’re strong and doing well on your own, then good for you. Go enjoy this portion of your life as best you can.
Do you ever wonder why it is that you suffer as you do? I’m sure your child’s suffering isn’t the extent of your trials. Don’t you ever question why god lets you experience that? How someone who claims to love everyone and be the ultimate force of good in the world allow such injustice and tragedy to befall little children? If not, your faith is probably totally blind.
I am glad you admit that you are weak. I will tell you something, I am quite certain that I am not weak. I can honestly say, I’ve been through a lot more than you will probably ever understand. Strength is overcoming that. I centered myself, relied on myself, and was supported by friends as well. One thing I never did was have to invent a fantasy to keep my sanity. I’m rooted right here in the real world, and I’m doing quite well, thank you very much. I’m not particularly concerned about the other portions of my life. I’ve gotten through some dark times on my own or with people I care about and I never once needed to make someone up to help me. I’m sure I’ll face harder stuff in the future, but I’m confident that I can handle it. After all, I’ve gotten this far and it’s only made me stronger.
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First of all, I’m quite aware of what delusions are about. It was my career. I’ve worked with several thousand people like that. As to my dad? I doubt that more than 10% of children have had a dad a good as mine. He was a man of integrity, kindness, gentleness and respectful to all he met. My dad was a strong, strong man of God.
That amazes me. You had a career in psychology or sociology or the like, and you’re still a Christian. I’m not sure whether I should congratulate you on having such ironclad faith or tell you there’s no hope left for you.
As for your dad, I’m glad that you had such a good childhood and a strong father. I am however, sorry that he brainwashed you like he did. I’m sure he was a good guy, but if he was a strong, strong man of god, then he was a weak, weak man of character. I’m sorry, but it’s just true. The only truly strong Christians are the ones who are using the religion for their personal gain. Pastors, Televangelists, Seminaries, etc.
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I know what you mean and I’m sure there are people like that everywhere, even within the atheist community 🙂 However, within the context of Christianity a self-righteous person would be somone like yourself who believe that he is good within himself, he has no need for forgiveness. “I don’t need god in order to be a good person.†Christians understand that we are not righteous in ourselves, that in fact no good thing lives within us. Our righteousness comes from God alone. Again, I know what you mean and in secular terms I suppose the phrase could fit.
Why would you offer salvation to someone unless you felt you were better than them, superior to them?
You don’t seem to understand. There is no “Secular” terms and “Non-secular” terms. There are just terms of language, and how you twist them to mean something else. And no, you don’t need to think “I’m a good person all on my own” to be self-righteous. Most people think they’re pretty good people. It’s Christians who tell you that god himself makes them good. Blameless, faultless and he’s going to let them into his awesome clubhouse in the sky. That is arrogant as hell and the definition of self-righteous. I’ll show you “Self-righteousness is a feeling of smug moral superiority derived from a sense that one’s beliefs, actions, or affiliations are of greater virtue than those of the average person.” That describes you and your ilk perfectly. You believe that because you are Christians, your beliefs, your morality is superior to everyone else. Typical holier-than-thou attitude.
Finally, you slipped up a little bit there. You can’t offer salvation to anyone. You’re not god. You can only make it known that it’s available. Isn’t that what they teach you? Humility? I’m sure you just forgot. 😉
I’ll close with this quote: “If you could reason with religious people there would be no religious people.” -House
“Self-righteousness generally means a feeling of superiority based on one’s actions,”
I know what you mean and I’m sure there are people like that everywhere, even within the atheist community 🙂 However, within the context of Christianity a self-righteous person would be somone like yourself who believe that he is good within himself, he has no need for forgiveness. “I don’t need god in order to be a good person.” Christians understand that we are not righteous in ourselves, that in fact no good thing lives within us. Our righteousness comes from God alone. Again, I know what you mean and in secular terms I suppose the phrase could fit.
Why would you offer salvation to someone unless you felt you were better than them, superior to them?
You’re absolutely right makarios, there’s an unhealthy amount of self-righteousness in theism and atheism. I think the difference is that it’s almost mandatory for theists to be self-righteous. They are told from a young age that if they accept God, they will get into heaven and that they should try and turn as many people as they can on to their beliefs. This breeds and encourages self-righteousness. In the atheist community, it tends to be more down to an individual’s personality, than a group-wide doctrine.
I’m not sure whether you were redirecting that question at me or not? If you were, then I should point out that I do not offer salvation. This blog is only meant as a debating and discussion platform. I offer facts and opinions and I try, as much as possible, to allow those who wish to contribute the have freedom to express their views. I get emails and comments left on this blog regularly by people, both theist and atheist (and agnostic), thanking me for allowing them to express their views without being ridiculed, shouted at, belittled or insulted. This blog tends to have very mature contributors, and I’m very grateful that I don’t need to get overly involved in moderation and censorship (in fact, I never do). It’s not about salvation, it’s about an open, frank and honest discussion between adults.
“Why would you offer salvation to someone unless you felt you were better than them, superior to them?”
I have absolutely no idea where that came from. I mean, I see it in my reply but honestly, I thought it was one of your comments that didn’t get deleted when I was responding. It’s obviously in my reply but I can’t imagine what point I would have been trying to make. I’m too lazy to go looking through previous comments but it does sound like something you would say, doesn’t it?
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“They are told from a young age that if they accept God, they will get into heaven and that they should try and turn as many people as they can on to their beliefs.â€
Again, it’s comments like this that lead me to believe that whatever the connection was that you had, it sure wasn’t a connection with Jesus. Have you ever read a good book and said to a friend, “Oh man you should read Dawkins’ new book. It’s really good.†Or seen a great movie and told a friend, “That was the best movie I’ve seen all year. You should see it.†THAT is what having Jesus does for a person. As the phrase goes, “Evangelism is just one beggar telling another beggar where to find food.†Now other atheists who have heard this have responded with disgust. Why? Because THAT is where true self-righteousness lies. ‘I don’t need help, I don’t need forgiveness and I certainly don’t need salvation.’ Atheists are righteous in their own eyes, in themselves. The exact opposite view of self that is involved in becoming a Christian. Who would ask for forgiveness if they thought, like atheists do, that they are good people?
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“In the atheist community, it tends . . .†To be directed toward others regarding their looks or their education or their wealth or where they live etc. etc. etc. It’s sad. It really is.
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“I know all too well what you mean by worship.â€
Then why can’t you explain it? Why aren’t you able to see it, to experience worship simply as an attitude of gratitude? Worship is a simple thing. In fact it comes naturally. It doesn’t require effort or planning. Worship is a natural outflow, a natural response of the Spirit in us communicating with God the Father.
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“Perhaps the real tragedy here is that you’ve never experienced that yourself.â€
I lived the first thirty years of my life without God. THAT is the tragedy and I regret it deeply.
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“who did he apologize to? The being that was the least effected by his actions.â€
Again, your statement indicates that you might have had beliefs about a belief in God but you were never a Christian. If you had been a genuine Christian you would never be able to make that statement.
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“He even goes so far as to say that ONLY god was effected by what he did.â€
That is NOT what he said. He had profoundly affected Bathsheba and many others, but he had only SINNED against God. My goodness, you really didn’t get anything out of your religious instruction. It makes me wonder if you were taught by ignorant people or if God has blocked you from understanding right from the get-go.
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“Because, if we COULD hurt him, he wouldn’t be all powerful, right?â€
Well, I don’t know about “hurting†God but we certainly can do wrong to Him. And I know that if we are anything like Him it is only the strong in humans that are able to allow themselves to experience hurt. In something totally counterintuitive to atheists, it’s the weak who don’t allow themselves to experience all of life and the strong who are able to do exactly that. That’s why Jesus tells us that He will give us life and life abundantly or to the full. Jesus makes us the kind of people who don’t have to run from pain. Rather, Jesus makes us the kind of people who can wade into the thick of life with our eyes wide open and our chest bared to the blast.
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“To exist is to sin against him.â€
Hey! I may have spoke too soon. You DID get something out of your Sunday School lessons.
Because all are born into a state of rebellion, it is only God’s Grace that will ensure that some humans get what they don’t deserve (life in eternal paradise) while His Mercy will ensure that those same humans don’t get what they do deserve (eternal separation from God). God will:
.Rescue those who are not looking for Him,
.Love those who hate Him, and
.Make peace with those who are His enemies.
The rebellious cannot complain because they are in fact guilty of rebellion.
The saved cannot boast because they have done nothing to deserve salvation.
After all, it is God’s right to declare and uphold the terms and conditions of His creation. The real question then is not, “Why did God create billions of people who are destined to be eternally separated from Him?” The real question to be asked is: Why Did God Create and Then Save For Eternity in Paradise, Billions of People Who Should Have Been Eternally Separated From Him.
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It’s a get out of jail free card.â€
Well, it’s free for you and for me but it cost Jesus His life and total separation from God the Father. You wouldn’t comprehend what that means but it’s no small thing.
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“Doesn’t matter if you’re Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, Ted Bundy, Waneta Hoyt or any other sick fuck.â€
Tell me something. Do you think you’re better than those people?
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“. . . hypocrite.†That is sort of my point, makarios.â€
Sooo, because you were a phoney EVERYONE is a phoney? Is that your line of atheist logic.
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“You chose Christianity because it appealed to your weakness. On some level, you know that’s true.â€
I all ready told you that. We’re ALL weak. It’s just that God let’s some of us see that fact.
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“allow such injustice and tragedy to befall little children?â€
How do you suppose that it’s unjust? Is there a rule somewhere that says some people should be exempt from pain and suffering?
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“the only truly strong Christians are the ones who are using the religion for their personal gain. Pastors, Televangelists, Seminaries, etc.â€
Oh, am I talking to a social Darwinist? Sure I am. That’s why you talk like such a wretched fool. Of course! A social darwinist. Oh man that IS sad.
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“I’ll show you “Self-righteousness is a feeling of smug moral superiority derived from a sense that one’s beliefs, actions, or affiliations are of greater virtue than those of the average person.”
Ya – like you think you’re better than those people you listed above. If you had the guts to play a hypothetical game, you’d say that some people deserve to go to hell why you don’t. Right? Sure I’m right. You think you’re better than other people, don’t you?
Part of becoming a Christian is recognising that we’re no better than anyone else. “There is no difference. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.†Romans 3:23.
My, my, my. The social darwinist who believes he’s better than the guy next door.
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My dad didn’t teach me a thing about God. Not verbally anyway. But as I grew up I was able to see the huge difference between him and other men that I knew and watched. It wasn’t until I was in my twenties that I finally figured out what made such a positive difference. Jesus – only Jesus.
It’s obviously in my reply but I can’t imagine what point I would have been trying to make. I’m too lazy to go looking through previous comments but it does sound like something you would say, doesn’t it?
Well, not really. Because I didn’t say it, you did. So that means it actually sounds more like something you would say.
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Atheists are righteous in their own eyes, in themselves. The exact opposite view of self that is involved in becoming a Christian. Who would ask for forgiveness if they thought, like atheists do, that they are good people?
Why do you think that? I know I’m not always a good person. I’ve accepted that. But I own up to what I do wrong. I make amends, I work to correct what wrongs I’ve done. But that’s me. I take full responsibility for it, and I live with it. I don’t need to invent a fairy tell where a magical spirit in the sky can take away my sin and guilt. That’s escapist at best and dysfunctionally delusional at worst.
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“In the atheist community, it tends . . .†To be directed toward others regarding their looks or their education or their wealth or where they live etc. etc. etc. It’s sad. It really is. Looks who’s being self-righteous and superior now.
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Then why can’t you explain it? Why aren’t you able to see it, to experience worship simply as an attitude of gratitude? Worship is a simple thing. In fact it comes naturally. It doesn’t require effort or planning. Worship is a natural outflow, a natural response of the Spirit in us communicating with God the Father.
I gave you a text-book definition of what it was and explained how exactly it applied to our conversation. I’m not sure what more you want. Worship is not what you define it as. The definition is to give worth to something that has none intrinsically. Which, acknowledging your invisible buddy up there is doing.
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I lived the first thirty years of my life without God. THAT is the tragedy and I regret it deeply.
Tell me… how did you finally come to believe in god? What actions or events led up to it?
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Again, your statement indicates that you might have had beliefs about a belief in God but you were never a Christian. If you had been a genuine Christian you would never be able to make that statement.
And your statement betrays that you cannot see any viewpoint outside of your own. I know that you believe that sin affects god and makes him sad. I don’t believe that anymore. I don’t even believe your god exists. Because if he did, he’s evil. And I refuse to believe in, worship or otherwise acknowledge an evil god.
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That is NOT what he said. He had profoundly affected Bathsheba and many others, but he had only SINNED against God. My goodness, you really didn’t get anything out of your religious instruction. It makes me wonder if you were taught by ignorant people or if God has blocked you from understanding right from the get-go.
Allow me to quote you: “And what does he say to God? “Against you and you only have I sinned.— Are those not the words of a man who has no sorrow for the lives he’s ended and the heartbreak he surely caused?
And of course I didn’t get anything out of my instruction. It’s utter bullshit. There is nothing anyone CAN get out of it other than being totally brainwashed to believe an outright lie.
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In something totally counterintuitive to atheists, it’s the weak who don’t allow themselves to experience all of life and the strong who are able to do exactly that…. Jesus makes us the kind of people who can wade into the thick of life with our eyes wide open and our chest bared to the blast. Is that why you need prayer, church, bible groups, and fellowship with your ilk to survive life? Isn’t it strange that you, who are so strong as you say, because Jesus made you that way, need so much just to get through your day, whilst the rest of us can do fine just by ourselves? Hmm?
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Hey! I may have spoke too soon. You DID get something out of your Sunday School lessons.
Because all are born into a state of rebellion, it is only God’s Grace that will ensure that some humans get what they don’t deserve (life in eternal paradise) while His Mercy will ensure that those same humans don’t get what they do deserve (eternal separation from God). God will:
.Rescue those who are not looking for Him,
.Love those who hate Him, and
.Make peace with those who are His enemies.
The rebellious cannot complain because they are in fact guilty of rebellion.
The saved cannot boast because they have done nothing to deserve salvation.
After all, it is God’s right to declare and uphold the terms and conditions of His creation. The real question then is not, “Why did God create billions of people who are destined to be eternally separated from Him?†The real question to be asked is: Why Did God Create and Then Save For Eternity in Paradise, Billions of People Who Should Have Been Eternally Separated From Him.
Because your god is evil. Luckily for everyone, he doesn’t really exist. And before you tell me that well, we can’t really understand him in all his complexity and glory. “God created man in his own image.” Genesis 1:27
We are made in his own image, according to your sacred book! So how then, could we be subject to morality, but he not? Is it not an evil act to create something and then torment and destroy it for exercising free will which you gave it? Either he gave us the understanding to make the decision, which means that he’s evil, or he’s unfathomable and didn’t give us the understanding to realize his true purpose which means that we can’t possibly make an educated decision. You told me you have a mentally impaired child. What if you told him/her to do something and to obey at all times, but you knew that he/she couldn’t possibly understand. And then you waited for your child to slip up, once they did, you killed them, slowly and painfully. Would that be fair? Would it be good? Or would it be evil? That is, in essence what you are saying god does.
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Well, it’s free for you and for me but it cost Jesus His life and total separation from God the Father. You wouldn’t comprehend what that means but it’s no small thing.
It is trivial. He had no need to do that. He created the conditions in the first place. He could have simply not allowed evil to take place. It is not a great sacrifice.
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“Doesn’t matter if you’re Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, Ted Bundy, Waneta Hoyt or any other sick fuck.â€
Tell me something. Do you think you’re better than those people? Do you think you are? Well, unless you’re a serial killer or a mass murderer, I think we know the answer to that. I made a choice NOT to kill hundreds of innocent people. They chose to kill them. Are they same as I am? Are they worse than I am? You tell me.
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“. . . hypocrite.†That is sort of my point, makarios.â€
Sooo, because you were a phoney EVERYONE is a phoney? Is that your line of atheist logic.
I like how it’s atheist logic, and not just actual logic. Here’s the thing though, makarious, I was a Christian. All Christians are hypocrite. Therefore, it follows that I was a hypocrite. If you want to argue that point, I can find dozens if not hundreds of contradictions in your Bible that proves it. In fact, just for you, I’ll post a couple a little later on.
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I all ready told you that. We’re ALL weak. It’s just that God let’s some of us see that fact.
Again, YOU are weak. You just hide behind a fantasy because you can’t deal with it. You take comfort in a book that tells you that everyone is that way, you don’t feel so weak because you believe everyone is like you. I’m sure it’s a nice delusion.
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How do you suppose that it’s unjust? Is there a rule somewhere that says some people should be exempt from pain and suffering?
Are you saying that innocent children deserve it? As long as you’re asking about rules, I have one for you it. You might be familiar with it. “It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones” Luke 17:2
Jesus said that. Are you saying that’s not true? That Jesus was wrong? Is harming little children just okeydokey in your book? Hmm?
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“the only truly strong Christians are the ones who are using the religion for their personal gain. Pastors, Televangelists, Seminaries, etc.â€
Oh, am I talking to a social Darwinist? Sure I am. That’s why you talk like such a wretched fool. Of course! A social darwinist. Oh man that IS sad.
You misunderstand me. I am not saying that what they do is good. Far from it, they lead weak and impressionable people like yourself astray and perpetuate this nonsensical fantasy for their own gain. But make no mistake, they are stronger than you. They were not swayed by the lies and sweet promises it offers and instead chose to take advantage of the weak people like yourself who would fall into that snare. Anyone who resists the lure of religion, that ancient and primeval crutch of the poor, the hopeless and the destitute is anything but weak. Real sorrow is someone who has fallen prey to the lies of charlatans and profiteers. How much money do you tithe to the church? If you follow the bible it’s probably something like 20-30 percent, if I recall correctly. You do follow the bible, don’t you?
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“I’ll show you “Self-righteousness is a feeling of smug moral superiority derived from a sense that one’s beliefs, actions, or affiliations are of greater virtue than those of the average person.â€
Ya – like you think you’re better than those people you listed above. If you had the guts to play a hypothetical game, you’d say that some people deserve to go to hell why you don’t. Right? Sure I’m right. You think you’re better than other people, don’t you?
Part of becoming a Christian is recognising that we’re no better than anyone else. “There is no difference. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.†Romans 3:23.
My, my, my. The social darwinist who believes he’s better than the guy next door.
Are you saying that you are the same as Ted Bundy? Are you saying that Osama Bin Laden has as much to answer for as you do? I’ll be honest, I do think I’m better than them. I am not self-righteous though. I do not think my beliefs, actions, or affiliations are of greater virtue than those of the average person. Ted Bundy, Saddam Hussein, Hitler, they are not average people. They are some of the worst people in history. I AM better than they are. I should hope you are too.
Here’s the hypothetical answer to your game. No one deserves to go to hell. Hell is unjust. It is an infinite amount of punishment for a finite crime. That is not justice, it’s evil. I don’t believe in an evil god, so I also cannot believe in hell.
As for your scripture, are you ready to take on in the nads? You might want to sit down. I’m about to burst your bubble. This is gonna hurt, ok? Eh, who am I kidding? You’re just gonna ignore it and pretend this didn’t happen. Here goes nothing, read these: “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.” 1 John 3:6
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God” 1 John 3:9
“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.” 1 John 5:18
“He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.” 3 John 11 “There is no man that sinneth not.” 1 Kings 8:46
“There is no man that sinneth not.” 2 Chronicles 6:36
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” 1 John 1:8
“If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” 1 John 1:10
Oh my god, did you see that? Your bible contradicts itself over and over again! Wow, your entire religion comes toppling down on itself. How can you sit there and argue something when you don’t even have a leg to stand on? I cannot understand it. Oh wait, I remember, it’s called “Blind Faith.” Wake up man, wake up and smell reality.
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My dad didn’t teach me a thing about God. Not verbally anyway. But as I grew up I was able to see the huge difference between him and other men that I knew and watched. It wasn’t until I was in my twenties that I finally figured out what made such a positive difference. Jesus – only Jesus.
Well, good for him. It sounds like he didn’t force it on you. That’s something at least. Here’s where your anecdote breaks down. Lets get some example people here. Lets have four people.
Your dad – Christian, Good Guy, Good Father
My best friend – Not Christian, Amazing Friend, Nice Person
Kenneth Lay – Christian, Ruined thousands of peoples lives, driven by greed
Josef Stalin – Not Christian, war crimes, human slavery
Do you notice anything here? Both Christian and non-Christian are capable both of incredible good and incredible evil. Clearly, Jesus and Christianity has NOTHING to do with ones morality or behavior.
Ok, that was a long post. Once again, I submit that ultimately, religion is the opiate of the masses. Jesus’s first converts were fishermen, laborers, tax collectors, prostitutes. People with NO social standing whatsoever. People who were desperate for anything other than what they had. Is it any wonder they were weak enough to believe in that fantasy?
“Looks who’s being self-righteous and superior now.”
Oh, I get it! Stating an observation is self-righteousness so we could both go back and forth till we die. Can not. Yes we can. Can not. Yes we can. Can not. Yes we can. Can not – How about let’s not?
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“I gave you a text-book definitionâ€
Yes I know. Everything is from a book. Not what you experience but what a book says you experienced. “I did just as the book told me to do it, therefore I was a Christian.â€
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“The definition is to give worth to something that has none intrinsically.â€
So God worships us?
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“What actions or events led up to it?â€
I began to think about life as I observed it. Human frailty has always fascinated me. That’s probably why I chose the profession I did. Why do we believe what we do? Why do we act the way we do. I had developed a whole notebook full of questions I wanted answered and set about to see which philosophy or religion provided the best answers. It was kind of an Ecclesiastes experience (Too stupid to just take his word for it). I left Christianity until the last since I felt that was the one world-view that I already knew the best. After ten years of searching – I did grow up in the sixties and seventies so some of it is a bit of a haze – it was Christianity that provided the answers I was looking for. Atheism was a bust right from the get-go. I found it interesting that any insight into human nature that psychology provided, insights that were deep and meaningful were already in the Bible. That made a fairly significant impact on me. Sure other philosophies had some ‘truths’ as well but they were so mixed up with, um, untruths regarding human nature. The more I read the Old Testament, the more I see in those people the same character as modern human beings. Societies are also moving in that direction. Brutal, cruel, harsh, unforgiving, violent.
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“Because if he did, he’s evil.â€
Really? Someone who would give His life so you could keep yours. You see that as evil?
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“Allow me to quote you: “And what does he say to God? “Against you and you only have I sinned.— Are those not the words of a man who has no sorrow for the lives he’s ended and the heartbreak he surely caused?â€
I don’t think so. Now, you’re right in that some prophet had to come and jerk David’s chain. We’re all blind to our deepest flaws, usually until someone comes and points them out to us. But once David got it, he got it. I don’t remember exactly but I think that after the prophet came and talked to David he was remorseful for what he’d done to Bathsheba and her family AND for what he’d done to God. Again, I may DO wrong to you but I SIN against God and ONLY against God. In a sense, SIN is a technical term that applies to the relationship between us and God. cf. the story about Jesus catching it from the Pharisees for forgiving the cripple’s sins. Why? Because only God can forgive sins. Why? Because sin only applies to our relationship with God.
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“. . . need so much just to get through your day, whilst the rest of us can do fine just by ourselvesâ€
I don’t NEED Jesus in the sense that you mean. I got along without him for more than half my life. People thought I was doing pretty good. No one else would have known my dissatisfaction. Look, TA, I just put up a basket ball need for my kids. To keep it from tipping over I placed a number of sandbags on the base. I COULD have carried each bag from the van to the net. But instead I used a wagon. I could have done it without the help but since help (the wagon) was available, I used it. It’s the same with Jesus. Anybody can do life without Jesus. I did. You do. Anyone can do it. But if He’s available, and if I can do a BETTER job with Him in my life, if in fact I can fulfill the MEANING of our existence, if in fact Jesus provides a CONTEXT for how I live and what I experience, if in fact Jesus provides PURPOSE for my existence, then why wouldn’t I take advantage of that? In this life we’re going to suffer. We can either suffer with Jesus in our lives, or without Him. You’ve chosen one direction. I’ve chosen another.
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“We are made in his own image, according to your sacred book! So how then, could we be subject to morality, but he not?”
Well, right up front, all I can give you is my minute understanding of this. But what I do understand is that we possess portions and degrees of God’s attributes and characteristics. God is the definition of morality. Objective good is based on His character. Objective obligations flow from His directives. Objective justice demands that wrong be judged and dealt with.
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“Is it not an evil act to create something and then torment and destroy it for exercising free will which you gave it?â€
Well, you and I have a free will choice to obey the speed limit or to not obey the speed limit. If I drive 100kms/hr in an 80kms/hr zone, I’m not going to get a ticket for HAVING the choice to obey or disobey. I’m going to get a ticket for how I used that choice. You have a choice to obey God or to not obey Him. If you choose to spend eternity apart from Him, that is what will determine your destiny. You won’t spend eternity apart from your Creator for simply having the choice to do so. It’ll be what you did with that choice that will determine where you spend eternity. You think that you’re a pretty good person and from a worldly perspective you probably are. However, the greatest commandment is to “Love the Lord your God with all your Heart, Soul, Mind and Strenght.” Therefore the greatest sin would be to not do that or worse, to reject God entirely, as you have chosen to do. God gave you a choice but He certainly didn’t force you to use it one way or the other.
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“Either he gave us the understanding to make the decision, which means that he’s evil,â€
How so? How is it evil to give people a choice? If Love is the greatest entity in the universe, and I believe it is, then the only way to achieve REAL love is for people to have the option to NOT love. There’s no other way. Those who want God’s love will get it and those who don’t want it won’t be forced to have it. How is that not fair?
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“but you knew that he/she couldn’t possibly understand.â€
Oh but we CAN understand. You understand perfectly well what your options are and it makes you furious. The reason you’re furious is precisely because you DO understand.
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“Are they worse than I am? You tell me.â€
True story – A Jewish survivor of the Nazi purge was sitting in on one of the Nuremberg trials. During a break in the trial, a reporter noticed the man sitting there with tears streaming down his face. Misjudging his motives, the reporter asked, “Are those tears from the rage you feel over what that man has done to your family?†The man turned to the reporter and replied, “This tears are because I recognise that the evil that resides in that man resides also in me.” TA, we are enemies of God NOT because of what we do, but because of who we are. And it was our choice, to become like this. Not only have the collective “we†made that choice once, but you’ve made it twice.
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“All Christians are hypocrite.â€
Well yes, that’s true. But only because every person on earth is a hypocrite. We pretend we’re rich when we’re not; confident when confused; happy when less than; kind when it suits our needs, etc. etc. We’re all liars, bigots, self-centred and self-obsessed. Yes, yes, Christians are all those things but so is everyone else. It’s just that Christians admit they are so. THAT’s why Christians bow before God and admit our true nature. That’s why we ask for forgiveness. I’m not sure how contradictions tie in to hypocrisy but if it makes you happy, knock yourself out.
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“Are you saying that innocent children deserve it?â€
I’m saying that we live in a world where shit happens. I think we’d be better off adapting to the kind of world we have (“changing what we can and accepting what we cannot change†to quote a phrase), than whining and complaining about how it should have been different.
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“It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones” Luke 17:2″
A more contemporary translation says, “. . . cause one of these little ones to SIN.†Ya, Jesus said it and I agree with it. If you have children and you’re teaching them that God doesn’t exist, this verse applies directly to you.
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“that ancient and primeval crutch of the poor, the hopeless and the destitute is anything but weak.â€
Oh it is. It’s a crutch a stretcher, an ambulance, a hospital. It was exactly the poor, the hopeless and destitute Jesus sought out when He was on earth and that is who He still welcomes safely home today. Why? Because these are the ones the rest of the world ignores. You’re hands are so full of yourself you can see no possible need for Jesus. I used to be like that but thankfully, He caught me in a teachable moment.
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“I AM better than they are.â€
Yes, I know. And God should be thrilled to have you in His home for eternity. Lucky for you God doesn’t force on people something they don’t want.
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“Wow, your entire religion comes toppling down on itself.â€
You did it man! You’ve taken down Christianity all by yourself. I suspect your picture will be on Time Magazine next week.
Now look what you’ve made me do. I’m sliding into snark again 🙂
TA, there’s an important term when studying literature and it’s called context. Every word of the Bible is part of a sentence. Every sentence part of a paragraph. Every paragraph . . . – and so on. Given that fact, the verses in 1 John – no, this is going to get too long. I hate it when other people do this but I’m going to refer to my May post, “No True Scotsman and Atheists. I explain my take on this in that post.
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“Do you notice anything here? Both Christian and non-Christian are capable both of incredible good and incredible evil.â€
I absolutely agree. I even agree with the statement that goes something like, “Bad people will do bad things and good people will do good things, but for good people to do evil, well, that takes religion.†That’s not exactly it but you’ve probably heard it.
I’m not saying you aren’t a good person without Jesus. I’m saying that I am a much, much, better person with Jesus. Billions of people have and will say the same thing for their lives. If you don’t want Him then push Him away. Life goes on.
Stating an observation is self-righteousness When you follow it up with “It’s sad, it really is” Then, yes. It’s being self-righteous. I’m not gonna play tit for tat with you. I grew out of that around the same time I grew out of Christianity.
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Yes I know. Everything is from a book. Not what you experience but what a book says you experienced. “I did just as the book told me to do it, therefore I was a Christian.â€
Anecdotes without evidence aren’t proof of anything except mental problems makarios. You are just following a book, and likely a misguided delusional pastor. Again, you’re doing nothing but side-stepping the real issue I was pointing out. You twist the meaning of words that have set definitions. That is not acceptable.
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“The definition is to give worth to something that has none intrinsically.â€
So God worships us?
Human beings have intrinsic value. They are valuable for their own sake, where as “god” only has value in that he helps you sleep better at night.
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I began to think about life as I observed it. Human frailty has always fascinated me. That’s probably why I chose the profession I did. Why do we believe what we do? Why do we act the way we do. I had developed a whole notebook full of questions I wanted answered and set about to see which philosophy or religion provided the best answers. It was kind of an Ecclesiastes experience (Too stupid to just take his word for it). I left Christianity until the last since I felt that was the one world-view that I already knew the best. After ten years of searching – I did grow up in the sixties and seventies so some of it is a bit of a haze – it was Christianity that provided the answers I was looking for. Atheism was a bust right from the get-go. I found it interesting that any insight into human nature that psychology provided, insights that were deep and meaningful were already in the Bible. That made a fairly significant impact on me. Sure other philosophies had some ‘truths’ as well but they were so mixed up with, um, untruths regarding human nature. The more I read the Old Testament, the more I see in those people the same character as modern human beings. Societies are also moving in that direction. Brutal, cruel, harsh, unforgiving, violent. Your Ecclesiastes reference is a good example of the thinking of people who fall into religion. They’re all too eager to just “take their word for it” and consider anyone who actually goes and examines things and comes to his or her own conclusion “too stupid.” Good slip there. As for human kind, if anything, we’re getting better, not worse. Our history is full of oppression, mass murder, and countless atrocities. But look at the world today: At least in some places, men of different skin colours are considered equal, and women are allowed the same rights as men. The sick are cared for, and the weak are allowed to worship whatever imaginary god they want. That is HUGE progress. And you know what is proceeding that progress? The demystification of the human condition. The religion of superstition and the acceptance of reason and science. In essence, look at our history, all the horrors we’ve endured. People like you supported them. The worse acts in human history have been done in the name of the Christian god. That’s what you’re representing. Where as atheists, believing in reason and demonstratable evidence have rejected fantasy and rather than simply saying “god made it like that!” they actually found out how it worked. And society benefited. Religion has been slowing progress and fostering hatred since before recorded history. It does far more harm that good and it’s about ready to be retired.
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Really? Someone who would give His life so you could keep yours. You see that as evil? Well, aside from the fact that he doesn’t exist. He didn’t give anything up at all. Jesus came back to life. Isn’t that what you believe? He didn’t give anything up at all. And what’s more, he didn’t need to do it in the first place, because he’s fulfilling something he set up in the first place. He made a condition that required him to die. He didn’t need to do that, because he’s omnipotent. So it’s a moot point. He basically is just jerking our chains and sending a lot of us to hell. That’s pretty fucking evil.
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I don’t think so. Now, you’re right in that some prophet had to come and jerk David’s chain. We’re all blind to our deepest flaws, usually until someone comes and points them out to us. But once David got it, he got it. I don’t remember exactly but I think that after the prophet came and talked to David he was remorseful for what he’d done to Bathsheba and her family AND for what he’d done to God. Again, I may DO wrong to you but I SIN against God and ONLY against God. In a sense, SIN is a technical term that applies to the relationship between us and God. cf. the story about Jesus catching it from the Pharisees for forgiving the cripple’s sins. Why? Because only God can forgive sins. Why? Because sin only applies to our relationship with God. Your example only proves that Christians aren’t the only ones worried about offending their imaginary sky friend. My point still stands, regardless of how Sin is supposed to work in your imaginary world, it still serves only to detract from the real guilt and responsibility for what was done in the first place. A truly benevolent god, should just automatically forgive sins, or even better, just remove the whole sin thing from existence. You would say, “God, I’m so sorry” and he would say “Oh, hey, Makarios, no worries man. You can’t offend me. I’m God! I love you more than you know! Have a great weekend and know that I’m always with you.” Yeah, no. He makes you beg for forgiveness, and tells you that you’ll go to hell if you don’t.
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I don’t NEED Jesus in the sense that you mean. I got along without him for more than half my life. People thought I was doing pretty good. No one else would have known my dissatisfaction. Look, TA, I just put up a basket ball need for my kids. To keep it from tipping over I placed a number of sandbags on the base. I COULD have carried each bag from the van to the net. But instead I used a wagon. I could have done it without the help but since help (the wagon) was available, I used it. It’s the same with Jesus. Anybody can do life without Jesus. I did. You do. Anyone can do it. But if He’s available, and if I can do a BETTER job with Him in my life, if in fact I can fulfill the MEANING of our existence, if in fact Jesus provides a CONTEXT for how I live and what I experience, if in fact Jesus provides PURPOSE for my existence, then why wouldn’t I take advantage of that? In this life we’re going to suffer. We can either suffer with Jesus in our lives, or without Him. You’ve chosen one direction. I’ve chosen another.
Your analogy is flawed. Most people sometimes get a friend to help carry the load sometimes, or find a wagon. You found a wagon, and then pretended that the wagon was an invisible pink unicorn who can carry your sandbags for you. There’s that weakness again. You have to invent a falsehood to deal with a situation. Imagine your neighbor comes over, and he sees you loading sandbags up on a wagon, and you say, “Hey, Neighbor! Guess what? I met this invisible pink unicorn in the woods! She’s really swell, you should talk to her and I’m sure she’ll help you with stuff too!” That’s how Christianity sounds to those in their right minds. The truth is, Jesus doesn’t exist. You’re making up all the effect he’s had in your life. You probably think you can hear him talking to you. You’ve trained your mind to do that. To hear an imaginary person.
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Well, right up front, all I can give you is my minute understanding of this. But what I do understand is that we possess portions and degrees of God’s attributes and characteristics. God is the definition of morality. Objective good is based on His character. Objective obligations flow from His directives. Objective justice demands that wrong be judged and dealt with.
Clearly that isn’t the case. Thou shalt not kill. And yet god commands men to kill, and even more than that, he kills men himself. Clearly, god has no moral obligation to his children. And we are created in his image. But what I can take away from your statement is you have no idea what that means.
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Well, you and I have a free will choice to obey the speed limit or to not obey the speed limit. If I drive 100kms/hr in an 80kms/hr zone, I’m not going to get a ticket for HAVING the choice to obey or disobey. I’m going to get a ticket for how I used that choice. You have a choice to obey God or to not obey Him. If you choose to spend eternity apart from Him, that is what will determine your destiny. You won’t spend eternity apart from your Creator for simply having the choice to do so. It’ll be what you did with that choice that will determine where you spend eternity. You think that you’re a pretty good person and from a worldly perspective you probably are. However, the greatest commandment is to “Love the Lord your God with all your Heart, Soul, Mind and Strenght.†Therefore the greatest sin would be to not do that or worse, to reject God entirely, as you have chosen to do. God gave you a choice but He certainly didn’t force you to use it one way or the other.
But what if the sign isn’t there? You yourself said that god blinds those to his truth. So perhaps then, I and others like me are just blind. God has not allowed us to see the truth. And we will still be punished for it. That is evil. We are being punished for having a choice, but not being given the knowledge see which one is right? Inhumane and cruel. Luckily, he doesn’t exist.
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How so? How is it evil to give people a choice? If Love is the greatest entity in the universe, and I believe it is, then the only way to achieve REAL love is for people to have the option to NOT love. There’s no other way. Those who want God’s love will get it and those who don’t want it won’t be forced to have it. How is that not fair?
It’s not fair because Love would never punish someone for not loving. Love would never do that because Love is unconditional. Love is never cruel. Let me break it down to you here. There are only two possibilities if your god is real. Either A) He is Love, as you say and cares for his children equally and could never bear to send them away to hell for eternity. OR B) He just says he is Love but in actuality, he will demonstrate his cruelty by sending away those he professes to love to an eternity of torment and pain. Which is it?
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Oh but we CAN understand. You understand perfectly well what your options are and it makes you furious. The reason you’re furious is precisely because you DO understand.
Is that how you people think? That we’re just so petty we can’t see the great deal you have going? Here’s why I don’t understand: The Bible is the infallible word of God, right? Even ignore all it’s contradictions, inaccuracies and mistakes there’s still the little issue of god himself and the method of salvation. You and the Bible have said, that god blinds the non-believers so that they cannot see the truth of his love, yadda yadda. The implication is that, if he did not do that, everyone would accept him! Because it’s such a great deal right? It costs you nothing and you get in the heaven, stay out of hell, life eternal, forever and ever amen, right? So why does he blind some of us? How is that fair? How is that loving? How is that just? If this is the case, then god picked me to go to hell forever. He at some point said “Jarael, yeah, he can go to hell. I don’t really need him here in heaven.” I can’t understand that. Even if I were to come back to him and accept Jesus again and all that jazz, there would still be millions of people out there who were just like me. People who god blinded and condemned to hell. So I can’t do that. I cannot support a god who condemns people to hell. Even if I knew for a fact that your god was real, I still wouldn’t accept him or worship him. Because he is evil. So, the truth of the matter is, we don’t understand, and it would make me furious, except he’s not actually real so I don’t really care one way or another.
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True story – A Jewish survivor of the Nazi purge was sitting in on one of the Nuremberg trials. During a break in the trial, a reporter noticed the man sitting there with tears streaming down his face. Misjudging his motives, the reporter asked, “Are those tears from the rage you feel over what that man has done to your family?†The man turned to the reporter and replied, “This tears are because I recognise that the evil that resides in that man resides also in me.†TA, we are enemies of God NOT because of what we do, but because of who we are. And it was our choice, to become like this. Not only have the collective “we†made that choice once, but you’ve made it twice. That’s a great anecdote, but it really just demonstrates that he was either waxing philosophically or he had a lot of self-hatred. Or even worse, was guilty of something horrible himself. We can’t know why he said that. That is the second time you’ve called me TA. Are you suggesting that I am titular host of this blog? I assure you he/she and I are not the same. I am enemies of your god because of what he does, not who he is, makarios. I didn’t make any choice to be who I am. Here’s the thing. Adam sinned right? and we of Adam’s seed have that same sin in us. I know how it’s supposed to work. Except it’s bullshit. I didn’t ask to be born. I didn’t ask to be human. I didn’t make any of those decisions. You know who did? Your god. When you get right down to it, sin is his fault. He made us tainted. He holds an entire species accountable for the actions of a single man. I’ll take it one step further. I blame god for making us in the first place. For giving us a tree of the knowledge of good and evil when he knew we would eat of it. I blame him for allowing the serpent into the garden to tempt Eve. If our sin can traced back to Adam, it can be traced back to your god. I never chose to be like this. What I have done is this: I’ve chosen to live a life of reason and rational decisions based on observable evidence. You’ve chosen to trust in the Tooth Fairy.
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Well yes, that’s true. But only because every person on earth is a hypocrite. We pretend we’re rich when we’re not; confident when confused; happy when less than; kind when it suits our needs, etc. etc. We’re all liars, bigots, self-centred and self-obsessed. Yes, yes, Christians are all those things but so is everyone else. It’s just that Christians admit they are so. THAT’s why Christians bow before God and admit our true nature. That’s why we ask for forgiveness. I’m not sure how contradictions tie in to hypocrisy but if it makes you happy, knock yourself out.
Here’s the thing though. Everyone is a hypocrite to some degree. Most people are aware they’re doing it. Christians however, are the worst kind of hypocrites. Ignoring the Sunday Christians, even the most devout Christians simply choose to pick what rules from their Bible they’ll follow. Tell me, do you observe the Sabbath? If you don’t you’re disobeying god. Do you stone your children to death if they disobey? If you don’t you’re disobeying god. Do you have pictures of Jesus or God or Saints or Prophets in your house? If you do, you’re breaking one of the ten commandments. If you are not perfectly following the Bible, you are a hypocrite of faith. The worst kind, because you claim to hold yourself to a higher standard than non-believers and yet you don’t even practice what you preach. As for contradictions… you do know what hypocrisy is, right?
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I’m saying that we live in a world where shit happens. I think we’d be better off adapting to the kind of world we have (“changing what we can and accepting what we cannot change†to quote a phrase), than whining and complaining about how it should have been different. Good work dodging the question. Do little children deserve to suffer? You’re saying yes. God controls the world, and in the world little children suffer. So not only does god want little children to suffer, he causes it to happen. Ah, the Serenity Prayer. Been to alanon have you? Interesting. I’m not whining and complaining. The harshness of the world illustrates my point nicely. Either your god doesn’t care about us or he doesn’t exist.
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A more contemporary translation says, “. . . cause one of these little ones to SIN.†Ya, Jesus said it and I agree with it. If you have children and you’re teaching them that God doesn’t exist, this verse applies directly to you. Don’t get me started on translations. Your contemporary translation is based on the bias of the translators throughout history. Even so, the KJV is considered to be more literal than the version you quoted. But lets say you’re right, lets say that’s what it meant. When I was born, I was made slightly wrong. The doctors told us it was just a minor defect in the womb, nothing life threatening. I developed a cataract in my left optical lens. The result? I’m completely blind in that eye. There is no cure or fix for it. I’m going to be blind there for the rest of my life. When I was younger and a Christian, I prayed to god every night to give back my sight the way that Jesus gave back the blind man’s sight in the Bible. You know what happened? Nothing. Everything I wanted to do, sports, driving, being pilot. Not possible because I’m impaired visually. So here’s the thing. God made me in such a way that began to question why it was. Eventually I realized he didn’t exist. God himself led me to sin. God is a hypocrite. But fortunately, he doesn’t exist.
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Oh it is. It’s a crutch a stretcher, an ambulance, a hospital. It was exactly the poor, the hopeless and destitute Jesus sought out when He was on earth and that is who He still welcomes safely home today. Why? Because these are the ones the rest of the world ignores. You’re hands are so full of yourself you can see no possible need for Jesus. I used to be like that but thankfully, He caught me in a teachable moment.
Because if he had spoke to the learned and the wise they would have called him a fool and laughed him out. You were vulnerable and weak and you thought you had a way out. You were broken and you created him to support yourself. It’s weakness, pure and simple. I hope before you die you realize that there was more to life and you missed out. Weakness is when you’re crippled. Salvation is when you give up on healing. Acceptance is this stretcher they carry you in on. Faith is drug they put you on. Worship is the hospital they take you to. Religion is the bed you linger and die on.
Others feel weakness at times, but amazingly, many of them can overcome it and become strong again without ever having to play make believe.
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Yes, I know. And God should be thrilled to have you in His home for eternity. Lucky for you God doesn’t force on people something they don’t want. Lucky for me, he doesn’t even exist!
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You did it man! You’ve taken down Christianity all by yourself. I suspect your picture will be on Time Magazine next week.
Now look what you’ve made me do. I’m sliding into snark again 🙂
TA, there’s an important term when studying literature and it’s called context. Every word of the Bible is part of a sentence. Every sentence part of a paragraph. Every paragraph . . . – and so on. Given that fact, the verses in 1 John – no, this is going to get too long. I hate it when other people do this but I’m going to refer to my May post, “No True Scotsman and Atheists. I explain my take on this in that post.
The reason I can’t just topple religion is the same reason you can’t just cure schizophrenia. No matter what you say, they won’t believe it. You can’t use logic or reason, because they will fight it with their dogma and twisted faith because it undermines their own beliefs and their entire reality-construct. The mind has trouble letting go. You need to be strong to let go.
“If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people.” -House
I looked over that post. It doesn’t address the contradicting verses. It does seem to contradict 1 John though. Bad makarios! Bad Christian! You are sinless! 1 John tells you so! Of course, Romans tells you you aren’t, but whatever! That’s not important! Just pick and choose like all Christians. Look, I’m familiar with the context. The simple version is that the author is telling believes that they are now sons of God and that sons of God are pure and without sin as God is pure and without sin. You can argue that if you want but you’ll be grasping at straws. And if you really want to say that I need to read the entire Bible (I have) to get the full meaning of any verse, then I’ll see your reducto and see you an ad absurdum I think that the context of the Bible requires not only a complete understanding of the book itself, but the original languages of Greek and Aramaic as well as experience in those respective cultures. In essence I am saying that you need to travel back in time and live your life seamlessly integrated with those cultures to understand. After all, it was not written with 21st English speakers in mind. Context is just an excuse you fundies use to hide the fact that you know, deep down, your bible is flawed and by extension all your beliefs.
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I absolutely agree. I even agree with the statement that goes something like, “Bad people will do bad things and good people will do good things, but for good people to do evil, well, that takes religion.†That’s not exactly it but you’ve probably heard it.
I’m not saying you aren’t a good person without Jesus. I’m saying that I am a much, much, better person with Jesus. Billions of people have and will say the same thing for their lives. If you don’t want Him then push Him away. Life goes on.
I have heard it. And I’m amazed you agree. How blind must you be to be able to understand that and STILL follow religion. I don’t necessarily agree with it though. I believe that if you do evil consistently, you ARE evil. Religion doesn’t make you automatically good by default.
Ah, much, much better person with Jesus. I’m glad you aren’t self-righteous or anything. Someone might think you were saying that you are better than everyone else because you have Jesus.
Here’s the thing though. You’re not actually good. Jesus actually makes you morally neutral if not evil. Being good requires that you want to be good for the sake of good itself. The motivation matters as much as the deed itself. A moral atheist does good because he believes in morality as a concept. He believes in good in and of itself. But Christians, they do good because they have an invisible sky god who tells them they must. They don’t want to disappoint their heavenly daddy because they don’t want to “sin.” And because they want “Eternal Life” instead of “Unending Torment” It’s a carrot/stick motivator all over again. You are not good, you are convincing yourself that someone is making you do good things. Objectively, you’re, at best, morally neutral because you stand to gain from what you do.
It reminds me of a quote: “Never trust a turncoat, even one you created yourself.” It was so easy for you to give up your morality and change your belief structure, why would any god want to let you into heaven? You’re not morally good or even trustworthy. If heaven is a place with only good people, Christians won’t be there.
“Anecdotes without evidence aren’t proof of anything except mental problemsâ€
Ah, I see. And the evidence to back up your diagnosis would be what exactly?
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“Again, you’re doing nothing but side-stepping the real issue I was pointing out.â€
Side-stepping! I didn’t even know you had a point. What is it?
==========
“Human beings have intrinsic value.â€
Not in your world they don’t. Christianity and ONLY Christianity brings forth the concept of the equality of man-kind. In a secular world, if you say you have X units of worth and your neighbour says you have no worth, your neighbour is just as correct as you are. In a secular world what is correct is determined by who has the most power.
===========
“He didn’t need to do thatâ€
If you were God how would you bring about real love and real morality without instituting free will choice?
====
“My point still stands, regardless of how Sin is supposed to work in your imaginary world, it still serves oâ€
Why do you only finish about 2/3’s of your statements?
=====
“Thou shalt not kill.â€
You should get out your dictionary and look up murder. God says, “Thou shalt not murder.†Sometimes killing is required.
============
Do you ever feel kind of schizophrenic living a belief system where you constantly have to jump back and forth between saying God is real when you want to find fault with Him and saying He isn’t real the rest of the time?
================
“But what if the sign isn’t there?â€
Is that what you’re saying? That you don’t know what God requires from you. Are you saying you don’t know the consequences of rejecting God or denying His existence? Because if that’s what you’re saying that would make you a liar of grand proportions.
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It’s not fair because Love would never punish someone for not loving.
Justice will punish someone and God is just. Atheists, on the one hand complain that God’s sense of justice is unlike a human understanding of justice, but then on the other hand atheists demand that crimes against God should go unpunished. There’s that schizophrenic mind-set again.
============
“you say and cares for his children equally and could never bear to send them away to hell for eternity.â€
Where have I said that?
=============
Oh but we CAN understand. You understand perfectly well what your options are and it makes you furious. The reason you’re furious is precisely because you DO understand.
I don’t think that changing the subject is very effective at a time like this. The reason you’re furious is precisely because you DO understand – Period! As I understand it, the people that God blinds or gives “ears that cannot hear,†are those who He knows will not accept His offer of salvation. His offer of salvation is on the table for you right this moment. It’s yours to accept or reject. However, if you reject this offer you can hardly blame God since you’re the one who is doing the rejecting. It’s a bit like a person who is starving to death and yet lives right next door to a food bank. He refuses to go next door to get free food and then blames the food bank for him starving to death.
Look, Jarael, I know that there are some tough things in the Bible. I know that the teachings of Jesus are difficult to follow. But I also know that in the end, no one is going to be able to blame God for being unfair. There may be a lot of things we’ll never understand this side of heaven, but we can know for a fact that God is Love, God is Just and God is fair. Our circumstances don’t change that.
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“We can’t know why he said that.â€
Or we could just believe him and not assume that he’s lying. Do you always assume the worst about people?
Here is something I simply don’t understand about atheists. I know this is a very generalised statement but it just seems to me that atheists as a rule have virtually zero insight into who they really are. I used to think that it was a put on; that it was something they just said to drive other people crazy. I’m beginning to think that it’s something that is maybe a genetic flaw or mutation or something. Remember when you mentioned Ted Bundy and all the others. You say that you’re much better than they are. And since the world judges people by their actions and not their motives (the exact opposite from God) most people would agree with you. But I say, the only difference between you and I and those guys is circumstance. The line that applies is, “There but for the grace of God go I.†If I had been born in Ted Bundy’s place and raised as he was raised etc. how could I say that I wouldn’t do something equally horrific. I believe very strongly and there are scores of studies to back this up, that we, all of us have to potential to be monsters or saints. All that separates us, and this is what the survivor at Nuremberg was saying, is time and place.
===============
“That is the second time you’ve called me TA.â€
I thought tA stood for The Atheist, the name of your blog.
=====================
“Everyone is a hypocrite to some degree. Most people are aware they’re doing it.â€
It doesn’t seem like you’re aware of it.
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“Christians however, are the worst kind of hypocrites.â€
Yes, not in degree, necessarily but because of what we stand for, because of who we represent. You and I might possess the same degree of hypocrisy but mine is worse precisely because of who I represent. You and I might be liars to the same degree but mine is worse because profess to believe that lying is wrong. For you to lie is really no big deal. You don’t claim lying is wrong. You, as an atheist could even say lying is alright and there would really be nothing to condemn you for, from a secular point of view that is.
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“most devout Christians simply choose to pick what rules from their Bible they’ll follow.â€
Well, I don’t want to send us back into debating the meaning of words, but I would say that NO “devout†Christian picks and chooses, but many if not most of the people who call themselves Christians seem to be doing exactly as you say. It’s tragic. It’s disgusting. On the other hand, judging Jesus by how one or more of His followers behave is like judging Mozart as a composer by listening to how I play his music.
=========
“If you are not perfectly following the Bible, you are a hypocrite of faith.”
I don’t believe that living perfectly is possible to do. I would be a hypocrite if I led to believe that I did follow God perfectly but I don’t know anyone who would make such a blatantly false claim.
==============
“As for contradictions… you do know what hypocrisy is, right?â€
Well, I thought I did. It’s pretending to be something that I’m not. Right? I still don’t see how a book having contradictions could make me a hypocrite.
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“Good work dodging the question.â€
Jarel, the children that starve to death in this world do so because WE let them. The children that are sold into sexual slavery do so because WE let them. We live in a world with sickness and natural disasters, and violence and crime and everything else. Are you trying to blame God for the things that we do? Suffering and tragedy may be hard to reconcile with the way we think God aught to run the show but again, Jesus going to the cross proves that we cannot say that God does not care about us.
Tell me, if you were God, how would you have done things differently?
==========
“Your contemporary translation is based on the bias of the translators throughout history.â€
I actually know people who work in linguistics and who do Bible translations. To a person they are a working definition of brilliant. They take their task VERY seriously. They are extremely diligent in their task. It kind of hard to talk to them about the Bible because they are forever “Well the Aramaic would for that . . .” or The Greek actually sounds a bit like . . .”
============
“I’m completely blind in that eye.â€
I’m sorry man. That sucks. I’m sure you’ve adapted and such but that must have added so many challenges to your life that other people don’t even think of or can’t imagine what it’s like even if you told them about it. You said, I think that because of your struggles you’ve become a stronger person. I’m glad there were at least some positives in this for you.
==========
“You know what happened? Nothingâ€
That’s got to be pretty disappointing. Especially if you were taught, wrongly I might add, that all you had to do was ask. I can see how you might be pretty angry at God for allowing you to be “created†that way AND then not doing something about it, especially when He’s done it for others.
We’re you teased while growing up? Has it had a negative effect on relationships or can people look past that and see the good in you? Sorry if this is too personal.
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“Because if he had spoke to the learned and the wise they would have called him a fool and laughed him out.â€
Oh yes, even today those who set aside the drive for more, more, more in order to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, house the poor are thought to be nuts.
===============
“You were vulnerable and weak and you thought you had a way out.â€
I’ve never expected, nor have I received a way out of life’s problems. Faith in Jesus does not provide good feelings. Rather it sustains me in the absence of good feelings.
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“I hope before you die you realize that there was more to life and you missed out.â€
What is it that you imagine that I’m missing?
==========
“Lucky for me he doesn’t exist.â€
You hope. Tell me something is this your line of thinking;
.I had a deep need to be healed
.God didn’t heal me
.Therefore God doesn’t exist
Can you not think of any benefits to hardship, suffering and tragedy?
=========
“Someone might think you were saying that you are better than everyone else because you have Jesus.â€
But I didn’t, did I?
========
Ah, I see. And the evidence to back up your diagnosis would be what exactly?
Your every post here, and your blog actually. It’s clear that you have a firm belief in the unprovable and irrational. You’ve concocted a false reality for yourself. That’s all the evidence anyone should need.
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Side-stepping! I didn’t even know you had a point. What is it?
That you’re twisting the definition of words. I said as much. Now you’re just stalling.
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Not in your world they don’t. Christianity and ONLY Christianity brings forth the concept of the equality of man-kind. In a secular world, if you say you have X units of worth and your neighbour says you have no worth, your neighbour is just as correct as you are. In a secular world what is correct is determined by who has the most power.
Wow, you’re just so wrong it’s pathetic. Christianity is NOT the only religion that brings forth concept of the equality of man-kind. The fact you would even say that tells me you don’t know jack about other religions. You don’t even know anything about humanism, which, you’re attempting to feeble argue against here. Allow me to break it down for you. Christianity is all about equality on the surface. Everyone is evil. Everyone deserves to die and go to hell. Pretty equal so far. However, then you have the Salvation issue where SOME people are less equal than others and get to go to heaven because god picked them. Equality? No. I cite Bhuddism, Wicca, Thelema as religions that are ACTUALLY promoting equality amongst man-kind (and all living things, actually.)
Your one-sided view of things just goes to show you really are just a Bible-thumper.
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If you were God how would you bring about real love and real morality without instituting free will choice?
I would man up, and be a god who forgives his creations no matter what they do and allow them to see the consequences of their actions for what they are and allow them to make it right. I would allow everyone into heaven, and let those who did not want to live in heaven with me go elsewhere of their own free will. I would still watch over them and protect them, but I would not tell them how to live or what to believe. Finally, most importantly, I would NEVER punish anyone disproportionally to their crimes. I.E. No hell.
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Why do you only finish about 2/3’s of your statements? I see the entire thread with nothing left unfinished. It’s probably your computer.
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You should get out your dictionary and look up murder. God says, “Thou shalt not murder.†Sometimes killing is required.
Maybe you should go research the fact that scholars cannot agree on whether murder or kill is the correct translation. Until recently, most if not all translations said “Thou shalt not kill.” The murder controversy arose because someone noticed that hey, god sure has people break that commandment a lot in the bible. There’s a case for both sides of the argument, so you’re hardly right. Nice try though.
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Do you ever feel kind of schizophrenic living a belief system where you constantly have to jump back and forth between saying God is real when you want to find fault with Him and saying He isn’t real the rest of the time?
Belief system? I don’t have a belief system. A belief system suggests that I need to believe in things that I cannot demonstratively prove. You have a belief system, I have empirical science. As for referring to god as real, I have never done so. I maintain that he does not exist. However, the mental construct that is the ideas and concepts that you ascribe to him, are laughable in their contradiction of terms. The most obvious of which is that he is ultimate goodness and love and defines morality and yet he even causes evil to happen or permits it and will send his beloved children to hell where they will be separated from him for eternity in anguish. On top of which, Christianity is responsible for some of the worst atrocities in human history in the name of your ‘god’. So yes, I have a problem with him, even though he doesn’t exist. Because you do exist, and you’re following his harmful teachings. I, and many others, find it easier to blame your delusions for what you do rather than you yourselves. After all, you didn’t come up with Christianity, someone put that idea in your head. Believe it or not, we atheists care about you theists. You’re not only harming others, you’re usually harming yourselves, or at least missing out on what life has to offer. We want to help you.
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Is that what you’re saying? That you don’t know what God requires from you. Are you saying you don’t know the consequences of rejecting God or denying His existence? Because if that’s what you’re saying that would make you a liar of grand proportions.
No, what I’m saying is that if god is really the ultimate good and knows everything, all he would need to do would be to reveal himself to me and explain why I need to accept him. If he’s right, there’s no way I could argue with him. But he chooses to withhold information that might affect my decision, in effect leaving me without enough information to really make a call either way. Since that’s an irrational thing to do for someone who is all knowing (he must know that I have my doubts for this very reason) and because he loves each and everyone of us, logically (a trait we picked up from him)he should just come explain the situation to me and then of course, I would know enough to repent and seek salvation or what have you. Since he chooses NOT to pursue that course, I am forced to one of two conclusions. A) One or more of those statements attributed to him is false. Which, since they’re in the bible, and the bible is the infallible word of god, invalidates the entire religion. or B) God does not exist. Either way, I’m not missing anything. (You did go to school right? Sometimes I wonder about you Christians. Basic logic seems to escape you)
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Justice will punish someone and God is just. Atheists, on the one hand complain that God’s sense of justice is unlike a human understanding of justice, but then on the other hand atheists demand that crimes against God should go unpunished. There’s that schizophrenic mind-set again.
You can’t have a crime against the ultimate being in the universe any more than a single ant can offend a blue whale. It’s absurd. You set the terms for the existence of your god in your bible, and when we logical-minded atheists go and say “well, that’s ridiculous because if what you’re saying is true, it invalidates your entire religion” you claim that god has some unfathomable justice system. (Please see the above post as to why that is just bullshit and further invalidates your god)
As for atheists being schizo. We don’t believe in an unprovable invisible sky spirit.
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“you say and cares for his children equally and could never bear to send them away to hell for eternity.â€Â
Where have I said that?
Are you saying that god is not love and does not value human beings equally? And I never said you said that specifically, I said that you said he is Love, and it follows that as he is Love, he would be unable to allow hell to exist, as infinite punishment for anything is anathema to love. You can’t have it both ways. Either god is love and there is no hell or sin, or he is not love and he just enjoys damning us to hell. Pick one.
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I don’t think that changing the subject is very effective at a time like this. The reason you’re furious is precisely because you DO understand – Period! As I understand it, the people that God blinds or gives “ears that cannot hear,†are those who He knows will not accept His offer of salvation. His offer of salvation is on the table for you right this moment. It’s yours to accept or reject. However, if you reject this offer you can hardly blame God since you’re the one who is doing the rejecting. It’s a bit like a person who is starving to death and yet lives right next door to a food bank. He refuses to go next door to get free food and then blames the food bank for him starving to death.
So what you’re saying is that we have no free will. Ok. Also, you food bank analogy is broken, allow me to fix it. You’re starving, and there’s a food bank next door, except that you know that the person who runs it kills babies and makes meat pies out of them and that’s what you get to eat. You get to live, by crawling over the bodies of everyone who didn’t want to support that atrocity. It would be like if to get into heaven, you had to walk on a bridge over hell. And you see the injustice of god before you walk into heaven. Even if I thought your god existed, he is far too unjust, unfair and evil for me to want to spend eternity with him. He sends babies to hell! Why in the world would anyone worship him?
Look, Jarael, I know that there are some tough things in the Bible. I know that the teachings of Jesus are difficult to follow. But I also know that in the end, no one is going to be able to blame God for being unfair. There may be a lot of things we’ll never understand this side of heaven, but we can know for a fact that God is Love, God is Just and God is fair. Our circumstances don’t change that.
No you don’t. You don’t know how anything is going to end. No one does. Ok, so God is Love, God is Just and God is Fair. But the fact that he isn’t, to us, doesn’t change that? Excuse me? Are you high? There is nothing loving, just or fair about eternal damnation because we have free will. And don’t give me the choice crap, not everyone even hears about Jesus. And what about people before him, eh? Is that just and fair for them too? No. Your every argument is rife with fallacy. I think I might just wretch.
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Here is something I simply don’t understand about atheists. I know this is a very generalised statement but it just seems to me that atheists as a rule have virtually zero insight into who they really are. I used to think that it was a put on; that it was something they just said to drive other people crazy. I’m beginning to think that it’s something that is maybe a genetic flaw or mutation or something. Remember when you mentioned Ted Bundy and all the others. You say that you’re much better than they are. And since the world judges people by their actions and not their motives (the exact opposite from God) most people would agree with you. But I say, the only difference between you and I and those guys is circumstance. The line that applies is, “There but for the grace of God go I.†If I had been born in Ted Bundy’s place and raised as he was raised etc. how could I say that I wouldn’t do something equally horrific. I believe very strongly and there are scores of studies to back this up, that we, all of us have to potential to be monsters or saints. All that separates us, and this is what the survivor at Nuremberg was saying, is time and place. Ok, so, no free will again? You’re certainly changing your tune. Here’s the thing, the reason you think atheists have zero insight into who they are, is because you only have “Christian” as an identity, so you’re too narrow-minded to see anything but that. You think “They’re not a Christian, so they must not know who they are.” I don’t believe in destiny, just so you know. I don’t believe that time and place is all that separates us. I want you to read something for me. http://www.viruscomix.com/page474.html
This illustrates beautifully that we all have a choice in what we become.
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I thought tA stood for The Atheist, the name of your blog.
I’m just a guest here like you.
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It doesn’t seem like you’re aware of it.
And how’s that free will paradox working out for you? We have free will, but as you said earlier “All that separates us, and this is what the survivor at Nuremberg was saying, is time and place.” Oh. Huh. I guess you’re not aware of it at all. Please find my own hypocrisy and point it out for me. Bonus points if I wasn’t aware of it. (Hint: You’re not gonna get any bonus points.)
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Yes, not in degree, necessarily but because of what we stand for, because of who we represent. You and I might possess the same degree of hypocrisy but mine is worse precisely because of who I represent. You and I might be liars to the same degree but mine is worse because profess to believe that lying is wrong. For you to lie is really no big deal. You don’t claim lying is wrong. You, as an atheist could even say lying is alright and there would really be nothing to condemn you for, from a secular point of view that is.
Yes. In addition to the fact that your entire belief structure is hypocritical, and the fact that most of your don’t practice what you preach but still condemn others for it. You in addition, claim to be better than all of us, and yet you really aren’t.
But it’s good that you acknowledge it in part. Admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery.
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Well, I don’t want to send us back into debating the meaning of words, but I would say that NO “devout†Christian picks and chooses, but many if not most of the people who call themselves Christians seem to be doing exactly as you say. It’s tragic. It’s disgusting. On the other hand, judging Jesus by how one or more of His followers behave is like judging Mozart as a composer by listening to how I play his music.
As you said before, Christians represent Jesus and Christianity. That’s my point though. I don’t think “devout” Christians exist. Just people who claim they are. You can’t follow all the rules and commandments in the bible, because so many of them are contradictory. It would be impossible. Mozart is also a bad example. The Jonas Brothers are a little bit more on par with Jesus. In which case we would be judging you because you played Jonas Brothers music.
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I don’t believe that living perfectly is possible to do. I would be a hypocrite if I led to believe that I did follow God perfectly but I don’t know anyone who would make such a blatantly false claim.
Well, so wait. So there’s nothing to stop me from accepting Jesus and then going and doing whatever I want? You mean to say that Christianity allows for a free pass and then I can just live my life in sin and everything will be forgiven? Wow, perhaps I misjudged you makarios. That’s a great deal. Oh wait, except it’s not because there’s no god. But I could see how you might like the license to do anything.
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Jarel, the children that starve to death in this world do so because WE let them. The children that are sold into sexual slavery do so because WE let them. We live in a world with sickness and natural disasters, and violence and crime and everything else. Are you trying to blame God for the things that we do? Suffering and tragedy may be hard to reconcile with the way we think God aught to run the show but again, Jesus going to the cross proves that we cannot say that God does not care about us.
Tell me, if you were God, how would you have done things differently?
Again, the cross doesn’t prove anything. He made us defective the begin with. So him offering a limited fix later doesn’t make him a good guy.
Also, if god loved us, he wouldn’t allow bad things to happen. I’m sorry, but that’s just how it is.
I already answered about what I would do. See above for that.
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I actually know people who work in linguistics and who do Bible translations. To a person they are a working definition of brilliant. They take their task VERY seriously. They are extremely diligent in their task. It kind of hard to talk to them about the Bible because they are forever “Well the Aramaic would for that . . .†or The Greek actually sounds a bit like . . .â€Â
You know what? So do I. I know Jewish scholars, Christian scholars, Catholic scholars and even Atheist scholars. Here’s the thing though. They admit that while they try to do their best now, there’s no way to tell what was changed over the years. (Do not even bother with the dead sea scrolls, that discovery just makes your entire bible look silly on account of you left some books out.)
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I’m sorry man. That sucks. I’m sure you’ve adapted and such but that must have added so many challenges to your life that other people don’t even think of or can’t imagine what it’s like even if you told them about it. You said, I think that because of your struggles you’ve become a stronger person. I’m glad there were at least some positives in this for you.
Nah, it wasn’t so bad. I’ll never be drafted, for one thing. My eye was the least of my worries growing up.
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That’s got to be pretty disappointing. Especially if you were taught, wrongly I might add, that all you had to do was ask. I can see how you might be pretty angry at God for allowing you to be “created†that way AND then not doing something about it, especially when He’s done it for others. Oh? Jesus never said that, did he? “For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.” Matthew 7:8 “And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.” Matthew 17:20 “Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.” Mark 9:23
I think these verses make it pretty clear that Jesus is promising exactly what I wanted as a child. Here’s the thing though, I wasn’t angry. I wasn’t even upset, because why would I be upset with someone who clearly has no power and doesn’t exist? All that happened, was I begin to test my beliefs, and they didn’t stand up. You would find the same is true except that you can’t bear to risk losing your crutch.
We’re you teased while growing up? Has it had a negative effect on relationships or can people look past that and see the good in you? Sorry if this is too personal. No, never teased. It’s not visually obvious, anyways. No negative effect other than people sneaking up on my blind side to surprise me. And amazingly, my filthy heathen friends don’t judge me. It’s like they’re good people or something. Imagine that.
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Oh yes, even today those who set aside the drive for more, more, more in order to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, house the poor are thought to be nuts.
No, it’s usually those people who start cults out in forest compounds, and drag in the weak and the destitute and the poor with promises of food, clothing, healing, shelter etc. It’s very easy to make people with nothing believe anything. Because they have nothing to lose, they have everything to gain. They will believe any glimmer of hope with no questions. That’s how Christianity got started, that’s how it maintains itself today. It doesn’t change the fact that it’s a lie and utter madness.
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I’ve never expected, nor have I received a way out of life’s problems. Yes you do. Don’t lie to me. You are looking forward to heaven. Isn’t that the ultimate way out of all your problems? You do believe in heaven right?
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What is it that you imagine that I’m missing?
Freedom.
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You hope. Tell me something is this your line of thinking;
.I had a deep need to be healed
.God didn’t heal me
.Therefore God doesn’t exist
Can you not think of any benefits to hardship, suffering and tragedy?
I don’t have to hope. There is to date not one single piece of real evidence that god exists.
No. That is not my line of thinking. It goes something like this:
-I wanted to be healed.
-I tested my faith.
-The Bible turned out to be false.
-I begin to question everything I had once blindly held to be true.
-I reassessed my worldview.
-I concluded that since there is no evidence for god he does not exist.
I certainly can. And I’ve already told you that I’ve benefited from my own hardships, tragedies and suffering. But I did it on my own.
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“Someone might think you were saying that you are better than everyone else because you have Jesus.â€Â
But I didn’t, did I? Actually… “I’m not saying you aren’t a good person without Jesus. I’m saying that I am a much, much, better person with Jesus.”
You did say that. I was being facetious.
In closing, I’m not sure I need to say anything beyond this post. I’ve more or less thoroughly explored my arguments and yours I think you’ve suitably demonstrated that you are a hypocrite, don’t really understand your own religion, much less anyone elses’ and you don’t really know the first think about atheism, debate or logic. It’s probably not your fault. Most people who are weak enough to fall for Christianity generally aren’t capable in debates or mental pursuits either. I’ve heard your points, and they sound like those of a man who is miserable and desperately clinging to the one (false) hope he has left in life. I feel pity for you, I really do. But I hope that one day you will learn to walk again, without leaning on superstition and mysticism.
I had a good time debating. It’s always a pleasure to sharpen my wit on the dull stone of fundamentalism. You can respond of course, if you like, but likely I will not say anymore. After all: “If you could reason with religious people there would be no religious people”
Peace.
Excellent replies Jarael,
If the bible god has no more respect to step in and help even one of the six million of his favorite people,(the Jews) then christians do not have a chance in hell for them to be saved from anything.
Hitler was only a little man compared to the bible god? Who is supposedly in charge of the universe? The bible god spent how many days, weeks month’s, years, hardening Pharoah’s heart and sending useless plagues, frogs, locusts, flies, turning rivers to blood, etc., yet he would not even lend six seconds of his time to help his own favorite people, he could have caused Hitler to have a heart attack, a stroke, a tree limb fall on his head, yet he chose to do absolutely nothing.
The bible god has all the resources available to him, to help people, to save people, to end evil, but yet he choses to do nothing, it seems he can only intervene in stories written about him in the bible.
Therefore the bible god only exists between the pages of a dusty old book written by a bunch of insane delusional tribal gypsies.
The bible, which was brought over here from Europe by the white man and along with his (black slaves, the lesser-than whites).
The bible was brought over here by the self-righteous white supremacists.
PETER GORE SEER God has help us all he give you intelligence he give you movement he give you hands .He give you power and put you on this planet BUT HE ALSO GIVE YOU FREE WILL man builds beautiful structures then destroys them you have life and death in you hands and choose death if you want to see the problems of this planet and all its faults Look in a mirror because it petrifies me.
About God not doing anything to help the Jews with the holocaust:
God several times in the bible let bad things happen to Israel, the Jews- his chosen people, when the chose to ignore him and go their own way. I believe that’s how they wound up imprisoned in Egypt the first time. Now I’m not saying that’s why God did it, no one could ever claim to know the will of God. But that also took place many hundreds of years after Christ, who established a new covenant for all people. Both Jews and Gentiles. I think if we want to debate whether or not God is good all we have to do is look at, and understand, what Jesus did on the cross. Because if the God of the universe died a horrible painful death so I could know him I would call Him good and want to know Him.
PETER GORE SEER JESUS came to me showed him self to me very similar to the storey of scrooge showed me how miracles affected are life’s and give me knowledge it is fantastic and he give me free will then told me any man who seeks me out shall know this knowledge.sticks and stones will braked my bones names will not hurt me don’t blame Jesus he does not force people to worship him that is mans choice I HAM THAT I am.
PETER GORE SEER All you atheist have done is make the questions harder so that answer are harder you do not Winn a argument you have lost the argument you are going in circles bigger and bigger you are Alone in your circles.
Is abortion evil?
No. I do not subscribe to the idea that it is better to birth a child into a miserable existence than not.
Does this mean that in certain socio-economic cases -infanticide is acceptable?
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Have you ever been dead?
Not since I was conceived, no.
Does this mean you accept that life begins with conception or did you make a mistake?