I tend not to shy away from my atheism. If someone wants to discuss religion or theism, I will happily oblige. This position has lead me to have many interesting conversations over the years with people of many different religions and backgrounds, and this has continued on this blog. I’ve noticed a number of themes, some common strands that tend to run through the conversations I have with those who are religious. There are certain arguments, certain propositions that continually come up. I don’t know if these are points those with religion are instructed to raise, whether there’s a list of points to use in their attempted conversations, or not, but they are common, and searching this blog and others like it you will see them come up time and time again. So with that in mind, I thought I’d list them here and respond to them individually. I’ll add to them if need be and, of course, the comments are always open if you agree / disagree with any points here.
Evolution is a Theory and is not Scientifically Sound
This is an argument that tends to come up less and less as the number of fundamentalist creationists fall. Put simply, they believe that evolution, and by association natural selection, cannot be proven. This perceived absence of scientific proof (not a measure the apply to any other aspects of their religion, clearly) means that the creationist view of our origins must be true.
People who truly believe this are difficult to argue with. The mechanics of evolution have been proven. It’s reproducible in a laboratory situation and therefore there’s no real debate to be had. What is potentially up for debate is whether we, as humans, are evolved from primates. There are some gaps in the evolutionary process, but the evidence is overwhelming. For example, we still have the muscles in our bodies that are used by primates but not us (e.g. the palmaris longus muscle), and as a result the muscle goes undeveloped and an increasing number of humans are born without it with no ill effect. If we were designed, then why would our designer give us an under-developed muscle that we never use that also happens to be present in an animal we share a significant amount of DNA with? Laziness? Lack of understanding? Inefficiency? And that is just one example, there are many more to be found within our bodies and thousands more out in nature.
It Requires More Faith to be an Atheist than not
The malformed logic here goes that the non-existence of a deity can never be proven, ergo, atheists must have “faith” that there is no deity. Of course this argument relies on a foundation of misunderstanding. The default position is to not believe in something for which there is no evidence of. It requires no faith to not believe in the existence of Godzilla, because there is no evidence to support its existence. If there was evidence to support a claim, if there was any logical, sensible, reason to believe in something, then it would require faith to not believe in it.
The Non-Existence of God Cannot be proven, ever.
This leads on from the misguided logic seen in the above statement, that atheists require faith because the non-existence of God cannot be proven, therefore our position can never be confirmed. I’ve already made a pretty good stab at disproving the Christian God, and I’m sure that with a little research many other popular deities could be similarly disproved. Of course, my argument only logically disproves the definition of the Christian God, not the being itself. But if we know the definition is incorrect, then the foundation of the religion must be brought into question.
There are no Atheists in Foxholes
I’ve had this posed to me on a number of occasions and, I’m afraid to say, I can’t see the point of the argument. Whether it is that, really, we all believe in a God but it requires some sort of epiphany to bring it out in us (like a rash, perhaps), or whether they believe that God touches people in their hour of need, I’m not sure. What I am sure of, is that there’s nothing like intense stress and trauma to inhibit people’s critical and logical thinking. I’m also sure that the idea of deities is so prevalent in our culture that saying “God help us” when the bullets are flying is no necessarily always a confirmation of belief in such a being. Yet no doubt, those who utter the words only to survive against the odds will put it down to heavenly intervention (those who don’t make it will be unable to make such a choice).
I have had Prayers Answered
No, I’m afraid you haven’t. You have asked for something to happen, and then it has happened. Whenever you claim to have had a prayer answered, think about the ones that have not been answered. And don’t lie to yourself by believing it’s all part of your deities plan, it’s not, there is no plan, and there is no deity. Always remember that correlation does not always equal causation. Could it be that if you wanted something to happen so much that you dared to pray for it, that your own motivated, driven actions would have helped the cause?
God has Spoken to me
Again, afraid not. If you are hearing voices in your head, you should seek professional help. That is especially true if the voices claim to be a deity of any kind. It is a medical condition called schizophrenia, whether the voice claims to be a deity or not, and regardless of whether you believe it is the vice of a deity, the voice is coming from you, and telling you what you want to hear.
My Holy Book is Accurate, I have Proof
Just because parts of a holy book portray a reasonably accurate representation of a certain period of history, it does not mean that the entire book is accurate. It can be clearly seen in modern literature that fictional works borrow heavily from real world locations and scenarios in order for them to appear more realistic. There is no historical proof of any miracles described in any holy book occurring. Given the number of holy books, and the number of miracles in each one, one would assume that there would be some sort of evidence for at least one of the miracles? But alas there is not, in the same way there is no evidence of Tokyo being destroyed by our old friend Godzilla, despite it being described in numerous forms of media and the city of Tokyo being portrayed quite accurately.
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I just want to add a quick note to say that although I am publishing this post now, I intend to keep updating it as I come across other arguments for religion. If you want me to add anything, or address your own personal reason for believing in whichever deity you chose, then please leave a comment and I’ll be happy to oblige. The comments are always open and are integral to this site.
Somehow my long response got lost … maybe it was God’s will 😉
Atheist, I enjoy your posts because you don’t seem to be angry as most of your fellow atheists are. I find it strange that people who think that we poor theists who just haven’t quite evolved enough to give up our heavenly teddy bear should be the object of anger, even if we do have an influence on some important contemporary issues. It is rather like being angry at fish for not yet evolving into amphibians.
More interestingly yet, I find myself actually agreeing with you on many of the points you raise in this post. In the way that you have explained them, in fact, I agree with all of them.
Could I ask: what would it take for you to accept that there is a God? I hope I am not maligning Richard Dawkins, but I think somewhere he says that even if a statue of Mary waved to him he would attribute it to a freak coincidence that the random motion of molecules happened to occur in the same direction for some short space of time. If anyone has a “faith” in atheism that would surely be it. That is to say, it is hard to see what could count as proof. As Jesus points out: “Not even if a man should rise from the dead would they believe.”
Proof is a something we don’t possess about anything if we don’t want to accept it. Most scientific proof revolves around the fact that there have been no counter examples that invalidate it. eg gravity = two masses attract, seems to ‘work’ in every known example where no other forces are in play. Most people are prepared to accept the overwhelming evidence and take that as proof, but clearly no one could ‘prove’ that there aren’t some masses somewhere that don’t attract at all. Science always works on a ‘best explanation until something better comes along’ basis, and we’re perfectly OK with this. Newton was not foolish to be corrected in some aspects by Einstein, for example.
Now when it comes to God, who can not be subjected to our senses at all, the only way of demonstrating his existence is by his effects (and actually that is the only way that many sub-atomic particles are known). But even these are material and subject to experimenation and observation. God is wholly outside that. The way to come to knowledge of God is not going to be by experiment, therefore. There can be no scientific proofs (or disproofs) of God, but only philosophical and personal ones.
However, there is a bigger difference than just “zilla” between God and Godzilla or any other disputed being. The questions of life and death, meaning, life after death, suffering, evil, existence etc… are fundamentally human questions, and their significance differs dramatically if God exists or if he doesn’t. Godzilla is entirely inconsequential in this. That is the point of “there are no atheists in foxholes”. It is not so much an argument as an observation. In moments of sheer terror these fundamental questions are invariably – even involuntarily – asked, and so the possibility of God becomes once again a real question. I think that if atheists are to be really honest they must admit a “but what if….?” doubt, and I think theists must accept a “but what if not…?” doubt at times. It is an existential question which will never go away, however many graphs of the increasingly silly intelligentia are plotted.
Finally, how about a second question: would you like there to be a God? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to say that that would prove anything. It would just give some idea of your perception of God.
Jonathan – Thanks for your comments. I don’t consider myself an angry atheist, and I do not consider myself to be angry at religion or those who practice their religion. What does make me angry are some of the acts performed in the name of religion, ranging from wars being waged and terrorist attacks being perpetrated right to way through to suppression of civil liberties and the encroachment of the religion of others on my life, be it through local or national government, society, organisations or other factors. And even then, perhaps angry is too strong a word.
As for your other two questions, it’s something I’ve given thought to but have never really articulated. I think my response would be rather verbose, so I’ll put up a post dedicated to it. I think it’s an important enough point to warrant a dedicated post, look for it shortly!
So…you’re saying that evolution has been proven? Well, if it occurred over millions of years, how can it be proven in a lab? Unless you took several million years to do so.
Also, by saying that evolution is real you’re saying that I’m a human, who happens to be an ape, who happens to be a dog-like creature, who happens to be a fish-like creature, who happens to be a tadpole-like creature, who happens to be a one-cell organism? That’s SICK!
Kad Aaray – Unfortunately it seems as if you have a fairly fundamental misunderstanding of evolution. Not only are you confused by rate of evolution (measured by generations, not time) but you seem confused regarding the difference between you personally and the species you belong to. No one is suggesting that you as a person is currently a single celled organism, that’s patently ridiculous. What we are saying is that the species you belong to used to be (note my choice of tense).
As for proving evolution. Well evolution is mutations, or changes that occur between generations. Natural Selection explains how only the mutations that best suit the environment survive to propagate. Our generations last tens of years, so observing changes that occur subtlety over thousands of years is difficult (but not impossible, there are changes between single human generations that can be observed). However, we can observe evolution on much shorter time scale by observing species which experience shorter generations. And we have.
Of course, there’s also the numerous examples of intermediary fossils that have been discovered which show species mid transition. If you’re interested in learning the truth, I’d recommend Reading some peer reviewed journals that discuss speciation.
We all evolve from one cell that has been fertilized. All the steps are still there for use to see. Did I leave anybody out?
I saw an angel on an acid trip once. That proves that they exist.
There’s absolutely no point or sense in being an ‘angry’ anything. Anger to me is potentially a damaging if not dangerous emotion which to state the obvious clearly and often does lead to dire consequences.
It certainly has no place in any reasoned debate or indeed any rational human interaction and its uncontrolled manifestation is totally a dysfunctional reaction and should have no domain on the human psyche.
Having read what I just wrote, I’m unsure if I have completely and accurately described my understanding of this emotion.
What I have personally observed as I allegedly supposed to grow older and wiser (if not sillier)is that my whole range of emotions have waned in terms of scope and intensity apart perhaps from the feelings of deep affection and protective instincts I have towards my grand children, particularly the youngest one.
That said I should mention that over the course of my some 7 decades of self-awareness I have vacillated between weak and strong atheistic beliefs though have witnessed the benefits, values and contributions made by religions which practice positive and humanistic ideals.
you guys are nerds.
i am a teen girl who thinks you just dont want to be accountable to God for ur sins. You just think this beautiful earth just happened to become so? God is my savior, and no matter what you say will make me believe otherwise. i cant believe ur that numb! if u choose never to believe in God, then i want u to remember me in when you stand before our HOly God.
As with all things present on earth, tangible or intangible, there are and will be fundamental flaws to it. For example, christians always regard God and His teachings etc as their fortress. No doubt the basic notion of a fortress will keep a person safe, it also serve as a barrier making it difficult for people from outside to reach and communicate with them, as seen clearly in the above posts. To erect a mental barrier around your beliefs and values, which are based on a primary source (The Bible), does not promote growth tolerance, empathy and very much, in my opinion, make them bigots. Most of the time, I see some christians go about preaching a given set of reasoning and beliefs and usually assimilate or simply reject the arguments of others.
I do acknowledge the credit religion have given people, be it those lessons on values and the by-product of faith, however if we do not question or exercise intellectual discretion on what is being taught and simply ‘sponge up’ everything based on the preconceived perpetuating opinion that such teachings should be how you should live by, then what does that makes you? I once accepted religion too but even at a young age, I realized that christians around me have a tendency to cast a myopic postive image of deities or God while the negative aspects usually go unacknowledged.
Bottomline, I don’t believe or will ever accept religion but I do accept that people look at religion differently. The benefits, whether they really are or not, if it makes a person feel happier or better then good for them. However, christians should really acknowledge that there is a general liberalization in culture and society so if they continue to maintain their stand then well, we’ll see =)
I had A Discussion About The Reality Of All This Stuff, And When I Would Say The Big Bang Or Something Else Just Happened People Would Say Well Someone Had To Do It, And That Was God, But Then When I Ask Who Made God Or How God Came To Be, It Just Happened Or He Was Always There, That Doesnt Answer Any Of My Questions, And Then If I Ask Why People Belive A Certain Thing, Theyll Say Because The Bible Says So And Since The Bible Says It Its True. But Say If I Were To Rid The World Of Everyone Above The Age Of 5, Write My Own Bible And History, And Preach It To Them And Feed That Into Their Minds, Couldnt I Be A God Aswell?
Does GOD need to be created?? Have you ever tried to feel GOD?
If supposedly we came to know that “something” created GOD then you will automatically ask who created that ” something”. This is the game of the human mind. Just take some time to think whether your breath is just a mechanical contraction and relaxation of muscles or something much more than this?
I would like to hear from you
if a single red bloood cell or even a single minute
component of an atom attains self awareness to question its
existence, purpose and function what will it question? Its self in
singularity or its place in pre determined system? And how far will
this self awareness go to perceive that: 1. There is a need for
survival. 2. That the pre detemined system itself has been designed
for survival and so at all cost has to maintained or even fine
tuned.
No matter what you say, the truth its that there is a God. There is a God who loves you, who created you in his image. He is my Savior, and I am redeemed from my sins and past. You can post your fancy essays that are “supported with great evidence,” but it’s really no evidence at all. Yes, there is no evidence to prove God either, but that’s where faith comes in, that’s when the supernatural takes place. If there was evidence, then what kind of glory would God recieve. Read the Bible and prove me wrong.
Use the bible to prove something isnt that a bit of an oxymoron? Also i wont post an essay of full of facts to explain why im atheist. But why do you need the supernatural to explain this wonderful natural world we live in does it so fail to amuse you that you believe in made up stories.
I agree. Not sure what atheists are worrying about evidence. I believe that my god is my computer and my “bible” is in invisible ink that only me and my followers can read and understand. Please show tolerance guys. Oh and btw my book kicks bible’s ass.
I am a Muslim Man and I should probably not be in this blog but as a person who only desires the Truth I have to discuss the matter Regarding God my self too….First of All just to say that i am born in a Muslim Family,Christian Family,Jewish Family or Hindu Family Does not Justify that i become a Muslim,Christian,Jew or Hindu being a Monotheist or Polytheist….I believe a Person should focus on a thing that what can be the Truth Regarding the Creation of the Heavens and The Earth Can it be Conincidential???? or Perfectly Organized By a God a Designer or a Creator????
Let us See the matter regarding coincidence
Is it a Coincidence that i am a creature who needs water to drink and there is plenty of water on earth,Is it a Coincidence I needed air to breath and there there is air for me to breath,Is it a Coincidence I needed Bright Day for Work and there is Bright day,Now is it a Coincidence I need Rest there is Dark Night for me to Rest on earth,Variety of Fruits,Vegetables,Meat,Natural Resources all for a Purpose…. According to The Holy Scriptures Torah, the Injil, the Zabur, or the Quran e Kareem There is Nothing as Conincidence every thing in this world is Perfectly Designed to fullfil Human Needs and the Final Revelation “Quran e Haqeem” Contains the information regarding the Previous Holy Books and is a Solution for Humanity, Any Person Before Denying Any thing I Severely Urge Every Person that just to Go Through the ‘Quran’ just Once….
The Reasons that Why I believe in God are Four….
1) Every Human in this world has been Made on a same Design principle (Dirt and Water) with life means (Bones,Flesh,Blood) in to Means the Designer is The Same Who bestows the Eyes,Ears and Hearts to enjoy the Colourful world….
2) The Designing of the Heavens and the Earth is specifically for no purpose then as a service to Humans as Changing of
Day and Night is specifically been made for human beings and the Air in which we breath is specifically suitable for our lungs
and when the rain falls and enters the Flowers,Fruit and Vegetable plants they all are made for our Feeding, Water for us
to Drink and Many Many Parameters that are necessary for our Existence altogether are Essential for our lives cannot be Coincidential….
3)Matter Can Neither be Created Nor Destroyed Implies once it must have been “Created” By An All Powerful Creator which is
“One” Cause If there were Two,Three or More They Would have Disputes among themselves….
4) Miracles of More Then 124,000 Prophets Preaching that God is One a chain of prophets starting with Adam and
including Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Job, Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, Elias, Jonah, John the Baptist,
and Jesus, peace be upon them. But God’s final message to man, a reconfirmation of the eternal message
and a summing-up of all that has gone before was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) through Gabriel.
The chief of any religion are political leaders. They convice people to increase their majority. So they are competing each other and for that the believers sacrificing their life taking someoneones life. Men can justify himself right or wrong. So, according to me no need to go with teaching of some religions book. You may be bilieve but one day all people of the world will be athiest. You can see America 16percent are athiest and uk 39 percent are athiest. And athiest are increasing day by day.
God’s existence is a fast dying fairy tale. Political activists and mentally chalkenged losers use it to sway uneducated mortals to commirt heinous crimes and pollute their thinking and cripple them of logical and rational thinking. Luckily natural selection will eventually get rid of this baseless fantasy and all its degenerate offshoots.