I’ve often wondered what would happen if I suddenly started believing in a religion. And some times, this thought extends and grows and I find myself wondering what would happen if everyone suddenly started following one religion. The entire world. So using the mindset of a Christian, I thought I’d take a look at the Bible to see what God ultimately has planned for us, and I came across this: –
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
 So, just to be clear. It is in God’s plans to destroy the wisdom of the wise and to frustrate the intelligent. If there’s anyone out there who would classify themselves as “wise” or “intelligent” I have one question for you. Why would God, the all powerful being, want to destroy wisdom and frustrate the intelligent?
Let’s think about this logically. If the bible says that God will destroy wisdom, and frustrate the intelligent, those who are not in possession of those attributes will look at those who do with, at best suspicion or at worse contempt. Therefore, when the wise and intelligent amongst us stand up and declare that God clearly does not exist, the calls will fall on ears deafened to the people who can actually help us move on as a species.
Whoever wrote The Bible wants the readers to believe that God can destroy wisdom and intelligence because both wisdom and intelligence will lead to the inevitable conclusion the The Bible is a lie, and the God described within it is not real. And as far as those in positions of power are concerned, the longer they can stunt the development of us as a people, us as a nation, the more they gain. Because once wisdom and intelligence become widespread, so will the realization that religion is the biggest con of all time.
The verse is quite appropriate in today’s day given the meaning, I would say…lol I believe it is saying that those who believe that the ones who believe in God are foolish, the intellectuals that claim belief in God is stupidity will be frustrated by God by his existence. Those who claim to be wise and do not believe in God are not wise; therefore their wisdom will be destroyed… Based on my understanding, the verse is saying that just God’s existence refutes all of the wisdom and intelligence of this world. It is not that his aim to create disorder but more that is what happens. It is that he defies what is known about the world. You (you being science or people in general) know that there are rules and laws that all of the beings on this earth obey… Christian or not it is observed everywhere that there is immense order on earth…the debate is how is came to be.
I don’t think that’s the way it’s playing out Chrissy. Certainly the intellectuals, people like Hitchens and Dawkins are being frustrated more by people who believe themselves to be wise incorrectly, i.e. the religious debaters who constantly, and fruitlessly, challenge them.
It’s a shame that some of the great intellectuals are being stifled not by God, but by people who would claim to serve him.
And does God’s existence refute all the knowledge and wisdom in the world, or does all the knowledge and wisdom in the world refute God’s existence? I know which is easier to believe in.
The easiest path is like most things in life that seem like a good idea at first…lol Not always the best.
According to my understanding on the Bible and the context surrounding the quote you posted, it is God’s existence that WILL frustrate the seemingly intelligent and cause the wise to become foolish.
As for Dawkins and Hitchens…lol Let’s not get ahead of our selves here…it is not the Christian that frustrate them… it’s the perception on the world and that they have decided to place the Christian community for their problems shouldn’t cause you to believe any one group of people are the cause of all the world’s problems…
Dawkins is a bit drab. I enjoy Hitchens quite a bit more… but that could just be because alcohol makes everything more fun.
I think Chrissy is generally correct in her read of the scripture, but “The Atheist” is taking words out of context. The Bible describes God as the source of wisdom, not a sabateur of it. A simple true picture is given by “Surely you desire truth in the inner parts; you teach me wisdom in the inmost place.” Ps 51:6, or “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge;” Pr 1:7.
The topic passage is describing a time when the non-believer will discover that the foundation of his knowledge has been faulty; that through his worldview he has led himself into deception. God is promising that He will reveal Truth, and that He will “destroy” the illusion of a false wisdom.
I do take issue with Chrissy generally dismissing “science”, as empirical science is not anti-theistic. Most of the so-called historical sciences, however, are.
I apologize Rick…I should have been more specific on my “science” comment…I more meant the majority of the “scientific community” or what has been termed the “intellectuals.” I am in full support of science and do not believe it in the slightest debunks the accuracy or legitimacy of the Bible or ones belief in God.
Other examples of God’s foreknowledge of the false wisdom man would embrace: “For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.” Rom 1:21-23
“They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.” 2 Th 2:10-12
So it appears these kinds of conversatons, or the rebellion of men from God, are nothing new.
Rick, I don’t think anyone’s questioning whether or not the writers of the bible were acutely aware that their writings will be questioned. If you had this knowledge, and let’s face it, if you’re writing something that isn’t true, you will know it’s going to be questioned at some point by someone, you would surely build in an explanation.
Building in “protection” against doubters is built into almost every religion. It’s a question of self preservation, pure and simple. It is for that reason you should doubt and question everything in every book you read, especially The Bible. You can’t deny the fact that there are many references within the bible to wisdom being crushed (for lack of a better word). If a country, in today’s day and age, decided to stop, prevent even, it’s populace being educated, we would all cry foul. The accusations would be that an educated populace would not stand for the oppression. Yet when this behavior is endorsed by The Bible, you seem fine with it. Can you draw comparisons between the two? I can.
Atheist, I think you are missing the point entirely. The Bible is not calling for everyone to stop educating themselves and their offspring. What it is saying is that in the end times everything will then be clear and then all our so called intellectuals will see their erroneous beliefs and perceptions…many ideas held by our scientific community will be destroyed…because all will be lucid. It’s like when and alcoholic has a moment of clarity, they see how wrong they have been and their knowledge thus far is destroyed.
RICK COMMENTS
“Other examples of God’s foreknowledge of the false wisdom man would embrace: “For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.†Rom 1:21-23”
MY COMMENT
Gee, if I was going to fabricate a story that I’d want people to believe as the truth, I think I WOULD mention that there are going to be those who don’t believe me. Don’t people do this all the time? Someone tells you a talltale and then says “Now I know Susie won’t believe me but you do, right?”
It’s like reverse psychology.
Both Melody and ‘the atheist’ seem to have the idea that faith is not to be questioned. This is not true, as we are to love God “with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.” Mt 22:37 What is ‘mind’, but that which figures things out? That which questions and inquires. “Blind faith” is not biblical, and would leave the Christian immature as “a babe in the woods” in this world.
The above scripture is called “The greatest commandment”, but what is a commandment? There is no commandment to obey gravity; no “thou shalt fall down when stepping off a cliff”, because we have no choice in the matter. Commandments are about the choices God has given us the freedom to choose, and the consequences they entail. The greatest commandment is then about the greatest choice He gave us in life; to either love Him or not. We are free to choose, and to accept the consequences thereof.
In this Age of Grace, brought on by Jesus’ new covenant with mankind, God will offer no proof, as the world understands it, of how we should choose. That would reduce our freedom to choose to a fool’s choice. Even the stiff-necked Israelites chose God when He parted the Red Sea and Pharoah was on their heels. But a choice made from fear is not earnest, as that story quickly showed. Just as you would not be impressed if your spouse said he/she loved you “because what else could I do?”, the coming Bride of Jesus will be a body of those who freely chose Him.
So while you won’t find proof before you choose Him, there is lots of evidence. God’s promise is that IF you earnestly use your mind to seek Him, you will find Him.
Im amused by the human notion of owning land. The land they trample on, as they lay claim, has been there long before and will be long after. The land must be amused as well and wonder if the silly humans realize that what they are arguing about doesnt really matter in the end.
We are the same with many things.
I think the main points of contention come from scripture being take out of context. The context that is the bible is not meant to be take as fact and full truth but as metaphor and parable. I know that there are people that take all of what is written in the bible as fact and those that refute them with the claims that they must be stupid or crazy to believe such nonsense and hypocrisy. That is because the bible’s message is supposed to be much more than skin deep. The bible is not full of factual events but with parables meant to be used as a guide to moral behavior and a fulfilling life. I hope my input was helpful.
Who is wise anyway?
Let him show it: by his life, by the humility that comes from wisdom. (Humility like Mother Theresa or many thousands of truly humbly wise souls whom I cannot name because they didn’t make themselves famous.)
Those who harbour bitter envy, selfish ambition and arrogant pride are not wise (like so many of our haughty intellectuals and power-brokers).
But the wisdom that comes from heaven is pure, peace-loving, considerate, humble, impartial and sincere. It is not proud, but open to reason.
This is the definition of ‘true’ wisdom from James 5:17, as opposed to ‘earthly’ wisdom that will be stripped naked at the end of it all.
“Certainly the intellectuals, people like Hitchens and Dawkins are being frustrated more by people who believe themselves to be wise incorrectly, i.e. the religious debaters who constantly, and fruitlessly, challenge them.”
Have you never watched a debate between Christopher Hitchens and a theist, hahaha? Christopher Hitchens doesn’t make an argument. He just says, “God doesn’t exist, and I hate Him.”
As for Richard Dawkins, he won’t actually debate a Christian apologist. Well, he did debate John Lennox and Lennox took him to the tool shed, but that was a while ago. And this is Dawkins argument:
1.) If something as complex as the universe needs a creator, then God needs a creator.
2.) God needs a creator.
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3.) God does not exist.
As you can see, this is logically fallacious. For if he wants to keep premise (2) then the universe had to have been created. And another problem with premise (2) is that Christians don’t believe in a created god. And again, God isn’t more complex then the universe because Dawkins is thinking of God is physicalist terms, which God can’t be thought of that way, because God is spirit. So there is nothing complex about God. And then of course (3) doesn’t follow from the argument at all.
Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, and Daniel Dennett aren’t incredibly intelligent people. They may be good in their field, but that’s it. They obviously don’t have an philosophical training because their arguments have (1) been refuted for about 100 years or more because they just borrowed from Hume and Kant, etc., and (2) their conclusions don’t follow from their premises. All they really do is rant and rave about how bad God and religion are, and then give about two pages of argumentation, which aren’t even valid. That’s why most atheists are embarrassed by them.