The question was posed to me in the comments of a recent post asking:
Could I ask: what would it take for you to accept that there is a God? I hope I am not maligning Richard Dawkins, but I think somewhere he says that even if a statue of Mary waved to him he would attribute it to a freak coincidence that the random motion of molecules happened to occur in the same direction for some short space of time. If anyone has a “faith” in atheism that would surely be it. That is to say, it is hard to see what could count as proof. As Jesus points out: “Not even if a man should rise from the dead would they believe.”
It’s an interesting question, and one that I have pondered in the past but never articulated. I thought it best to begin by stating what will not lead me to believe in a deity.
Something Science Cannot Explain
There is a school of thought that believes atheists can be converted if they can be shown something which cannot be reasonably explained by science. This falls into the realm of the “God of the gaps” argument. For me, personally, seeing something which cannot be reasonably explained by science simply means that it cannot currently be explained by science. Science is a constantly evolving beast by its very nature, and problems which seemed insurmountable only a couple of decades ago are now taught to school children.
Any Holy Book in Isolation
Note the clause at the end of that statement. I don’t believe any book can change my world view enough so as to make me believe in a deity. The reason I trust science is that there is no trust required. If I read a book that proposes a theory, I can exercise my right to validate the theory. If I choose not to do this, I can look upon the works of others and examine their methods in order to determine whether they meet my standards of proof. And even if they do, I can repeat the experiement in order to be sure that I am happy with the method and the results. Of course, I rarely exercise this right, so there is an element of trust, but there are two key differences between trusting a holy book and trusting a scientific theory.
- Even if I put my trust in the results of a scientist, I can still go out and prove it myself. This is not possible with holy books.
- Trusting a holy book is putting your trust in a single source. Scientific theories are, in the vast majority of cases, confirmed or rejected by many other scientists who approach the experiment with an open yet critical mind. It’s very rare that science has to rely on a single source, and such theories are always treated with the requisite scepticism. This is not a quality generally shared by the religious community.
The “in isolation” clause should be fairly self-explanatory. While I cannot accept any holy book as it stands (plus, which one would I chose, there’s so many!), there may, in the future, be evidence that comes to light that substantiates all of the claims made in such a book. And let’s be clear, evidence would have to exist for all the claims made.
A Miracle, a Message from God, a “Spiritual Experience”
The example of Richard Dawkins, who would dismiss an image of the statue of mary waving at him is an interesting one. I am sure that I would also dismiss such a thing, and I’m sure many others would to. If I was already a believer, I would be even more ready to question anything that confirmed by belief, anything that I wanted to be true. Taking the specific example of a statue appearing to wave, there are many reasons this might appear to happen. As we know, light can bend altering the appearence of objects, statues can actually move as their structual integrity decays. There’s a myriad of ways to explain such an event.
Similarly, many spiritual experiences can be easily explained through known phenomena. I would also be careful to consider all aspects of such an event, such as similar experiences that didn’t make sense or fall into some sort of plan.
What Would Make me Believe?
The answer to this question is “nothing”. There is nothing that would make me believe in any deity. However, I do not, and cannot, rule out the possibility of my accepting a deity exists. Note the subtle but important difference in wording I’ve used. I will never believe in a deity, but if the presence of a deity can be proved to the point where belief is not necessary, I will accept their existence. And at that point, I would no longer be an atheist. I have so far yet to witness any evidence whatsoever for the existence of any deity and therefore find it hard to believe such a day will come. It would be very un-atheistic of me, however, to not examine any evidence should it ever be produced.
Do I Want God to be Real?
Jonathan posted a second question, which I feel obliged to answer.
Finally, how about a second question: would you like there to be a God? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to say that that would prove anything. It would just give some idea of your perception of God.
Again, an interesting question, but the answer really depends on what your definition of a God is. For example, I would not want the Christian God to be real having read the Bible. It is a vengeful, spiteful, angry, jealous, arrogant God who seems more interested in being worshipped, like some celebrity, than guiding people down the right path. I feel similarly about any deity that builds into their religious teachings (used under advisement! I do not believe any deities exist and therefore do not believe there are any teachings from these non existent beings) any intolerance of any other belief (or absence of belief) system or that requires any form of worship. I cannot concede that any being powerful enough to create the universe, and wise enough to impart such knowledge and wisdom, would be as egotistical to demand that the creatures he has created constantly worship him.
On a personal level, I don’t actually care whether a deity exists or not. While, if they were proven to be real, there would clearly be an impact on all of our lives, at this moment in time I don’t really mind. I don’t care whether my origins are primates or a creator. I would say that in my experience those who believe, and especially those who come to religion later in life, do so because they need to believe, and I do not have that need myself. I can accept that my life is unplanned, and not part of some great scheme of a creator, that doesn’t worry me or make me feel inadequate in anyway. In fact, I feel quite comfortable with it. So my response to the question “would you like there to be a God” would be “I have no need for there to be a God”. A slight cop-out, perhaps, but an honest answer.
Related posts:
I do not believe in any god and I am certain that none of the earth centric, self loving gods that exist in the majority of religions are false and nothing could prove to me that they are real. If religious people can deny vast evidence against god, I think I can allow myself one irrationality and say that I will never believe in an earth centric or jealous god.
Despite that I do not deny the possibility of some vast intelligence that got the universe started and has fingers in all parts of the universe. such a god would merely be a observer and slight guider. It seems rational to me that such a benevolent god would want to create something as beautiful as the universe we live in. However, this gives absolutely no importance to earth or humans and even makes the chances of an afterlife slim to none.
On the topic of what could convince me that a god exists I think the book Contact by Carl Sagan hit on it perfectly. The god I could believe in could choose to stay hidden forever, but if it did make its presence known it would not be in some one-off and explainable event like a burning bush on some backwater planet like Earth. Instead it would be a grand announcement that every civilization would eventually find and statistically would approach impossibility. In Contact the main character found a sequence of numbers in pie in base 11 that drew a perfect circle in 1’s and 0’s when arranged in equal lines. This combination of statistical improbability and symbolic message combined in a form that any sufficiently advanced civilization could see would convince me beyond a doubt that there is either a god or a civilization so advanced it is indistinguishable from a god.
Johnathan Baker you are one smart cookie!
Seriously though, you are an incredibly reasonable man
Well, this was a nice discussion. It is a shame it has concluded. Yet the conclusion was inevitable due to the topic discussed. What have we achieved? Experience to use in future discussion when attempting to make our beliefs more plausible and accepted? Either way, my position is that of an agnostic, with an emphasis that our existence, and the existence of everything around us is meaningless. You do not need deep knowledge or previous philosophical/scientific/ whatever experience to deduct this. It is the most obvious and easiest conclusion to reach…just keep asking the question why, and unless you desire to cease to ask the question you will continue forever, or at least to the point where you say: ” I don’t know.” and therefore find your either atheistic or theistic stance futile. The reason for people ignoring this idea is that they believe it is beyond their reasoning capabilities. Those who argue (theists,atheists) are in a worst spot due to their already plagued mind, so obsessed with proving to the other their idea that they completely disregard the fundamental approach to these questions. Ultimately your own weakness in reasoning, whether you are an atheist or a theist, is your classification as one. Identifying/classifying yourself only limits your reasoning. IT is difficult to be completely unidentified since we are all used to finding out who we are, what personality we have, etc; yet the key to our “better” life (as futile as it is) is the removal of identity. Our primitiveness is evident in our posts themselves. We write on an internet website which not many know about, hidden in between a list of replies with an even lesser chance of being read. Ultimately when the site goes down so do our ideas, only present in the minds of those few who stumbled upon this, yet after considering ti for a few days took it as just another post whose significance was slowly dissolved in the events of an everyday life. Waking up, going to work/school/living, sleeping etc. Then we die, and for some “we” just disappear, with bodies decomposing and our beings only alive through someone elses memories, which too fade as they too die. For some, we go to heaven, where we continue living in futility, whose presence is masked by our belief that we have a purpose, whether it be just standing next to God for eternity or for whatever reason someone deems heaven meaningful. Well this can go on forever, so to spare you some time of your life, farewell.
Peter gore seer I believe in GOD because a curs was put on me It went in me thru and round me.And a angel came to rescue me told me to tell a preist that I have been touch by an angel I am that I am.
“What Would Make Me Believe in a God?” I suspect nothing would ever be good enough.
Take God up on His challenge. God proclaims that He will fortell the end so that you can’t credit your idols (false gods).
How? A simple prophecy, God says that Israel will never cease to be a nation, He will protect Israel from sure anihialation. His name is tied to a people He has chosen. Keep an eye out nations will rise against Israel and against all odds they will prevail.
Jeremiah 31:35-36
I was a atheist but a event change my life forever opened a door because of money £3600 my mother had save it.She got friendly with a nabor and she was heaving it even if it meant conjuring up a demon and killing me or anyone else.My mother and granddaughter were victims both were killed the witch use a nasty entity know as master another entity stepped in said she was an angel saved my life no arm would come to me and look after me.And i will help people from time to time but i person must have there own beliefs and be free to choose as i am i can walk away i forgive the witch her sole is lost my sole is saved i have greater power you all have let religion start with you.As it started with me love amen.