Comments on: The Atheist's Challenge – 22 Questions http://www.the-atheist.com/the-atheists-challenge-22-questions/ Just another WordPress site Tue, 11 Oct 2011 15:49:24 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Scott http://www.the-atheist.com/the-atheists-challenge-22-questions/#comment-2042 Scott Tue, 03 May 2011 00:18:44 +0000 http://www.the-atheist.com/?p=211#comment-2042 Ok, i know this is an old post but i completely agree with one point on the atheist. i am a christian but i hate it when other Christians shove Jesus and God down atheists throats! Yes you need to know God in a personal way, maybe your a sinner and maybe you aren't but if i shove it down your throat you'll shove it back at me with hatred. i don't enjoy how Christianity has become in most of the world but to The Atheist, if you do see the light, please consider it and not shove it away at first glance. but i am not saying you have to accept it, it is your personal decision. Ok, i know this is an old post but i completely agree with one point on the atheist. i am a christian but i hate it when other Christians shove Jesus and God down atheists throats! Yes you need to know God in a personal way, maybe your a sinner and maybe you aren’t but if i shove it down your throat you’ll shove it back at me with hatred. i don’t enjoy how Christianity has become in most of the world but to The Atheist, if you do see the light, please consider it and not shove it away at first glance. but i am not saying you have to accept it, it is your personal decision.

]]> By: Avonlea http://www.the-atheist.com/the-atheists-challenge-22-questions/#comment-1789 Avonlea Wed, 19 Jan 2011 21:31:39 +0000 http://www.the-atheist.com/?p=211#comment-1789 Okay, I really want to know, do you have any idea what your talking about? Not all Christians are like your preconcived idea. Not all of us sit in our pews with our Bibles telling oursevlves how rightious we are. I most deffinatly am NOT one of those. First of all, at my church we don't have pews, we have big plastic chairs. And my church isn't really a church building; it's more like a barn. Second of all, I have NEVER sat around and told myself how rightious I am. Neither has anyone else I ever knew, least of all my mother. Oh, and another thing, the path of Christianity is not filled with nothing but emptiness, judgement and false hope. True, it's filled with a lot of hardships, but God never said it was gonna easy. And those hardships are ment to make us stronger, not to weaken us. In my personal opinion, athiests who were formally Christians weren't really Christians at all. Christianity is not something you do, but something you accept. You can't just try it for a while and then give it up because you didn't like it. It's something you've gatta stick to, and try your hardest at. Look at what Jesus did just so you could have eternal life and happiness. He came down from His home in heaven to be born into poverty and hardship. Then He grew up and did a lot of teaching for a while, was arrested, got almost all the life beaten out of Him, and then was nailed to a cross and crucified. (That was the most humiliating and painful way to die back then.) He even rejected a form of pain relief. And His own father turned His back on Him, He was so covered with sin. He did all that just so you go to live in heaven with Him. i you ask me I think that is the most selfless act of kindness in the entire history of the world. If there's anyone whose acting selfrightious here, I think it's you. Okay, I really want to know, do you have any idea what your talking about? Not all Christians are like your preconcived idea. Not all of us sit in our pews with our Bibles telling oursevlves how rightious we are. I most deffinatly am NOT one of those. First of all, at my church we don’t have pews, we have big plastic chairs. And my church isn’t really a church building; it’s more like a barn. Second of all, I have NEVER sat around and told myself how rightious I am. Neither has anyone else I ever knew, least of all my mother. Oh, and another thing, the path of Christianity is not filled with nothing but emptiness, judgement and false hope. True, it’s filled with a lot of hardships, but God never said it was gonna easy. And those hardships are ment to make us stronger, not to weaken us. In my personal opinion, athiests who were formally Christians weren’t really Christians at all. Christianity is not something you do, but something you accept. You can’t just try it for a while and then give it up because you didn’t like it. It’s something you’ve gatta stick to, and try your hardest at. Look at what Jesus did just so you could have eternal life and happiness. He came down from His home in heaven to be born into poverty and hardship. Then He grew up and did a lot of teaching for a while, was arrested, got almost all the life beaten out of Him, and then was nailed to a cross and crucified. (That was the most humiliating and painful way to die back then.) He even rejected a form of pain relief. And His own father turned His back on Him, He was so covered with sin. He did all that just so you go to live in heaven with Him. i you ask me I think that is the most selfless act of kindness in the entire history of the world. If there’s anyone whose acting selfrightious here, I think it’s you.

]]> By: B Roodnick http://www.the-atheist.com/the-atheists-challenge-22-questions/#comment-1028 B Roodnick Thu, 20 May 2010 19:09:07 +0000 http://www.the-atheist.com/?p=211#comment-1028 Is abortion evil? No. I do not subscribe to the idea that it is better to birth a child into a miserable existence than not. Does this mean that in certain socio-economic cases -infanticide is acceptable? ____________________________ Have you ever been dead? Not since I was conceived, no. Does this mean you accept that life begins with conception or did you make a mistake? Is abortion evil?
No. I do not subscribe to the idea that it is better to birth a child into a miserable existence than not.

Does this mean that in certain socio-economic cases -infanticide is acceptable?

____________________________
Have you ever been dead?
Not since I was conceived, no.

Does this mean you accept that life begins with conception or did you make a mistake?

]]> By: Peter gore seer http://www.the-atheist.com/the-atheists-challenge-22-questions/#comment-1027 Peter gore seer Thu, 17 Dec 2009 09:56:11 +0000 http://www.the-atheist.com/?p=211#comment-1027 PETER GORE SEER All you atheist have done is make the questions harder so that answer are harder you do not Winn a argument you have lost the argument you are going in circles bigger and bigger you are Alone in your circles. PETER GORE SEER All you atheist have done is make the questions harder so that answer are harder you do not Winn a argument you have lost the argument you are going in circles bigger and bigger you are Alone in your circles.

]]> By: Peter gore seer http://www.the-atheist.com/the-atheists-challenge-22-questions/#comment-1026 Peter gore seer Fri, 23 Oct 2009 05:31:56 +0000 http://www.the-atheist.com/?p=211#comment-1026 PETER GORE SEER God has help us all he give you intelligence he give you movement he give you hands .He give you power and put you on this planet BUT HE ALSO GIVE YOU FREE WILL man builds beautiful structures then destroys them you have life and death in you hands and choose death if you want to see the problems of this planet and all its faults Look in a mirror because it petrifies me. PETER GORE SEER God has help us all he give you intelligence he give you movement he give you hands .He give you power and put you on this planet BUT HE ALSO GIVE YOU FREE WILL man builds beautiful structures then destroys them you have life and death in you hands and choose death if you want to see the problems of this planet and all its faults Look in a mirror because it petrifies me.

]]> By: Peter gore seer http://www.the-atheist.com/the-atheists-challenge-22-questions/#comment-1025 Peter gore seer Thu, 22 Oct 2009 09:08:07 +0000 http://www.the-atheist.com/?p=211#comment-1025 PETER GORE SEER JESUS came to me showed him self to me very similar to the storey of scrooge showed me how miracles affected are life's and give me knowledge it is fantastic and he give me free will then told me any man who seeks me out shall know this knowledge.sticks and stones will braked my bones names will not hurt me don't blame Jesus he does not force people to worship him that is mans choice I HAM THAT I am. PETER GORE SEER JESUS came to me showed him self to me very similar to the storey of scrooge showed me how miracles affected are life’s and give me knowledge it is fantastic and he give me free will then told me any man who seeks me out shall know this knowledge.sticks and stones will braked my bones names will not hurt me don’t blame Jesus he does not force people to worship him that is mans choice I HAM THAT I am.

]]> By: wes http://www.the-atheist.com/the-atheists-challenge-22-questions/#comment-1024 wes Fri, 12 Jun 2009 06:44:32 +0000 http://www.the-atheist.com/?p=211#comment-1024 About God not doing anything to help the Jews with the holocaust: God several times in the bible let bad things happen to Israel, the Jews- his chosen people, when the chose to ignore him and go their own way. I believe that's how they wound up imprisoned in Egypt the first time. Now I'm not saying that's why God did it, no one could ever claim to know the will of God. But that also took place many hundreds of years after Christ, who established a new covenant for all people. Both Jews and Gentiles. I think if we want to debate whether or not God is good all we have to do is look at, and understand, what Jesus did on the cross. Because if the God of the universe died a horrible painful death so I could know him I would call Him good and want to know Him. About God not doing anything to help the Jews with the holocaust:

God several times in the bible let bad things happen to Israel, the Jews- his chosen people, when the chose to ignore him and go their own way. I believe that’s how they wound up imprisoned in Egypt the first time. Now I’m not saying that’s why God did it, no one could ever claim to know the will of God. But that also took place many hundreds of years after Christ, who established a new covenant for all people. Both Jews and Gentiles. I think if we want to debate whether or not God is good all we have to do is look at, and understand, what Jesus did on the cross. Because if the God of the universe died a horrible painful death so I could know him I would call Him good and want to know Him.

]]> By: Steven Bentley http://www.the-atheist.com/the-atheists-challenge-22-questions/#comment-1023 Steven Bentley Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:42:03 +0000 http://www.the-atheist.com/?p=211#comment-1023 Excellent replies Jarael, If the bible god has no more respect to step in and help even one of the six million of his favorite people,(the Jews) then christians do not have a chance in hell for them to be saved from anything. Hitler was only a little man compared to the bible god? Who is supposedly in charge of the universe? The bible god spent how many days, weeks month's, years, hardening Pharoah's heart and sending useless plagues, frogs, locusts, flies, turning rivers to blood, etc., yet he would not even lend six seconds of his time to help his own favorite people, he could have caused Hitler to have a heart attack, a stroke, a tree limb fall on his head, yet he chose to do absolutely nothing. The bible god has all the resources available to him, to help people, to save people, to end evil, but yet he choses to do nothing, it seems he can only intervene in stories written about him in the bible. Therefore the bible god only exists between the pages of a dusty old book written by a bunch of insane delusional tribal gypsies. The bible, which was brought over here from Europe by the white man and along with his (black slaves, the lesser-than whites). The bible was brought over here by the self-righteous white supremacists. Excellent replies Jarael,

If the bible god has no more respect to step in and help even one of the six million of his favorite people,(the Jews) then christians do not have a chance in hell for them to be saved from anything.

Hitler was only a little man compared to the bible god? Who is supposedly in charge of the universe? The bible god spent how many days, weeks month’s, years, hardening Pharoah’s heart and sending useless plagues, frogs, locusts, flies, turning rivers to blood, etc., yet he would not even lend six seconds of his time to help his own favorite people, he could have caused Hitler to have a heart attack, a stroke, a tree limb fall on his head, yet he chose to do absolutely nothing.

The bible god has all the resources available to him, to help people, to save people, to end evil, but yet he choses to do nothing, it seems he can only intervene in stories written about him in the bible.

Therefore the bible god only exists between the pages of a dusty old book written by a bunch of insane delusional tribal gypsies.

The bible, which was brought over here from Europe by the white man and along with his (black slaves, the lesser-than whites).

The bible was brought over here by the self-righteous white supremacists.

]]> By: Jarael http://www.the-atheist.com/the-atheists-challenge-22-questions/#comment-1022 Jarael Tue, 02 Jun 2009 21:27:42 +0000 http://www.the-atheist.com/?p=211#comment-1022 <I>Ah, I see. And the evidence to back up your diagnosis would be what exactly?</I> Your every post here, and your blog actually. It's clear that you have a firm belief in the unprovable and irrational. You've concocted a false reality for yourself. That's all the evidence anyone should need. ============================================== <i>Side-stepping! I didn’t even know you had a point. What is it?</i> That you're twisting the definition of words. I said as much. Now you're just stalling. =============================================== <i>Not in your world they don’t. Christianity and ONLY Christianity brings forth the concept of the equality of man-kind. In a secular world, if you say you have X units of worth and your neighbour says you have no worth, your neighbour is just as correct as you are. In a secular world what is correct is determined by who has the most power.</i> Wow, you're just so wrong it's pathetic. Christianity is NOT the only religion that brings forth concept of the equality of man-kind. The fact you would even say that tells me you don't know jack about other religions. You don't even know anything about humanism, which, you're attempting to feeble argue against here. Allow me to break it down for you. Christianity is all about equality on the surface. Everyone is evil. Everyone deserves to die and go to hell. Pretty equal so far. However, then you have the Salvation issue where SOME people are less equal than others and get to go to heaven because god picked them. Equality? No. I cite Bhuddism, Wicca, Thelema as religions that are ACTUALLY promoting equality amongst man-kind (and all living things, actually.) Your one-sided view of things just goes to show you really are just a Bible-thumper. ============================================ <i>If you were God how would you bring about real love and real morality without instituting free will choice?</i> I would man up, and be a god who forgives his creations no matter what they do and allow them to see the consequences of their actions for what they are and allow them to make it right. I would allow everyone into heaven, and let those who did not want to live in heaven with me go elsewhere of their own free will. I would still watch over them and protect them, but I would not tell them how to live or what to believe. Finally, most importantly, I would NEVER punish anyone disproportionally to their crimes. I.E. No hell. =========================================== <i>Why do you only finish about 2/3’s of your statements?</i> I see the entire thread with nothing left unfinished. It's probably your computer. ========================================== <i>You should get out your dictionary and look up murder. God says, “Thou shalt not murder.” Sometimes killing is required.</i> Maybe you should go research the fact that scholars cannot agree on whether murder or kill is the correct translation. Until recently, most if not all translations said "Thou shalt not kill." The murder controversy arose because someone noticed that hey, god sure has people break that commandment a lot in the bible. There's a case for both sides of the argument, so you're hardly right. Nice try though. =========================================== <i>Do you ever feel kind of schizophrenic living a belief system where you constantly have to jump back and forth between saying God is real when you want to find fault with Him and saying He isn’t real the rest of the time?</i> Belief system? I don't have a belief system. A belief system suggests that I need to believe in things that I cannot demonstratively prove. You have a belief system, I have empirical science. As for referring to god as real, I have never done so. I maintain that he does not exist. However, the mental construct that is the ideas and concepts that you ascribe to him, are laughable in their contradiction of terms. The most obvious of which is that he is ultimate goodness and love and defines morality and yet he even causes evil to happen or permits it and will send his beloved children to hell where they will be separated from him for eternity in anguish. On top of which, Christianity is responsible for some of the worst atrocities in human history in the name of your 'god'. So yes, I have a problem with him, even though he doesn't exist. Because you do exist, and you're following his harmful teachings. I, and many others, find it easier to blame your delusions for what you do rather than you yourselves. After all, you didn't come up with Christianity, someone put that idea in your head. Believe it or not, we atheists care about you theists. You're not only harming others, you're usually harming yourselves, or at least missing out on what life has to offer. We want to help you. ======================================= <i>Is that what you’re saying? That you don’t know what God requires from you. Are you saying you don’t know the consequences of rejecting God or denying His existence? Because if that’s what you’re saying that would make you a liar of grand proportions.</i> No, what I'm saying is that if god is really the ultimate good and knows everything, all he would need to do would be to reveal himself to me and explain why I need to accept him. If he's right, there's no way I could argue with him. But he chooses to withhold information that might affect my decision, in effect leaving me without enough information to really make a call either way. Since that's an irrational thing to do for someone who is all knowing (he must know that I have my doubts for this very reason) and because he loves each and everyone of us, logically (a trait we picked up from him)he should just come explain the situation to me and then of course, I would know enough to repent and seek salvation or what have you. Since he chooses NOT to pursue that course, I am forced to one of two conclusions. A) One or more of those statements attributed to him is false. Which, since they're in the bible, and the bible is the infallible word of god, invalidates the entire religion. or B) God does not exist. Either way, I'm not missing anything. (You did go to school right? Sometimes I wonder about you Christians. Basic logic seems to escape you) ========================================== <i>Justice will punish someone and God is just. Atheists, on the one hand complain that God’s sense of justice is unlike a human understanding of justice, but then on the other hand atheists demand that crimes against God should go unpunished. There’s that schizophrenic mind-set again.</i> You can't have a crime against the ultimate being in the universe any more than a single ant can offend a blue whale. It's absurd. You set the terms for the existence of your god in your bible, and when we logical-minded atheists go and say "well, that's ridiculous because if what you're saying is true, it invalidates your entire religion" you claim that god has some unfathomable justice system. (Please see the above post as to why that is just bullshit and further invalidates your god) As for atheists being schizo. We don't believe in an unprovable invisible sky spirit. =========================================== <i>“you say and cares for his children equally and could never bear to send them away to hell for eternity.” Where have I said that?</i> Are you saying that god is not love and does not value human beings equally? And I never said you said that specifically, I said that you said he is Love, and it follows that as he is Love, he would be unable to allow hell to exist, as infinite punishment for anything is anathema to love. You can't have it both ways. Either god is love and there is no hell or sin, or he is not love and he just enjoys damning us to hell. Pick one. =========================================== <i>I don’t think that changing the subject is very effective at a time like this. The reason you’re furious is precisely because you DO understand - Period! As I understand it, the people that God blinds or gives “ears that cannot hear,” are those who He knows will not accept His offer of salvation. His offer of salvation is on the table for you right this moment. It’s yours to accept or reject. However, if you reject this offer you can hardly blame God since you’re the one who is doing the rejecting. It’s a bit like a person who is starving to death and yet lives right next door to a food bank. He refuses to go next door to get free food and then blames the food bank for him starving to death.</i> So what you're saying is that we have no free will. Ok. Also, you food bank analogy is broken, allow me to fix it. You're starving, and there's a food bank next door, except that you know that the person who runs it kills babies and makes meat pies out of them and that's what you get to eat. You get to live, by crawling over the bodies of everyone who didn't want to support that atrocity. It would be like if to get into heaven, you had to walk on a bridge over hell. And you see the injustice of god before you walk into heaven. Even if I thought your god existed, he is far too unjust, unfair and evil for me to want to spend eternity with him. He sends babies to hell! Why in the world would anyone worship him? <i>Look, Jarael, I know that there are some tough things in the Bible. I know that the teachings of Jesus are difficult to follow. But I also know that in the end, no one is going to be able to blame God for being unfair. There may be a lot of things we’ll never understand this side of heaven, but we can know for a fact that God is Love, God is Just and God is fair. Our circumstances don’t change that.</i> No you don't. You don't know how anything is going to end. No one does. Ok, so God is Love, God is Just and God is Fair. But the fact that he isn't, to us, doesn't change that? Excuse me? Are you high? There is nothing loving, just or fair about eternal damnation because we have free will. And don't give me the choice crap, not everyone even hears about Jesus. And what about people before him, eh? Is that just and fair for them too? No. Your every argument is rife with fallacy. I think I might just wretch. =========================================== <i>Here is something I simply don’t understand about atheists. I know this is a very generalised statement but it just seems to me that atheists as a rule have virtually zero insight into who they really are. I used to think that it was a put on; that it was something they just said to drive other people crazy. I’m beginning to think that it’s something that is maybe a genetic flaw or mutation or something. Remember when you mentioned Ted Bundy and all the others. You say that you’re much better than they are. And since the world judges people by their actions and not their motives (the exact opposite from God) most people would agree with you. But I say, the only difference between you and I and those guys is circumstance. The line that applies is, “There but for the grace of God go I.” If I had been born in Ted Bundy’s place and raised as he was raised etc. how could I say that I wouldn’t do something equally horrific. I believe very strongly and there are scores of studies to back this up, that we, all of us have to potential to be monsters or saints. All that separates us, and this is what the survivor at Nuremberg was saying, is time and place.</i> Ok, so, no free will again? You're certainly changing your tune. Here's the thing, the reason you think atheists have zero insight into who they are, is because you only have "Christian" as an identity, so you're too narrow-minded to see anything but that. You think "They're not a Christian, so they must not know who they are." I don't believe in destiny, just so you know. I don't believe that time and place is all that separates us. I want you to read something for me. http://www.viruscomix.com/page474.html This illustrates beautifully that we all have a choice in what we become. ============================================ <i>I thought tA stood for The Atheist, the name of your blog.</i> I'm just a guest here like you. =========================================== <i>It doesn’t seem like you’re aware of it.</i> And how's that free will paradox working out for you? We have free will, but as you said earlier "All that separates us, and this is what the survivor at Nuremberg was saying, is time and place." Oh. Huh. I guess you're not aware of it at all. Please find my own hypocrisy and point it out for me. Bonus points if I wasn't aware of it. (Hint: You're not gonna get any bonus points.) ============================================ <i>Yes, not in degree, necessarily but because of what we stand for, because of who we represent. You and I might possess the same degree of hypocrisy but mine is worse precisely because of who I represent. You and I might be liars to the same degree but mine is worse because profess to believe that lying is wrong. For you to lie is really no big deal. You don’t claim lying is wrong. You, as an atheist could even say lying is alright and there would really be nothing to condemn you for, from a secular point of view that is.</i> Yes. In addition to the fact that your entire belief structure is hypocritical, and the fact that most of your don't practice what you preach but still condemn others for it. You in addition, claim to be better than all of us, and yet you really aren't. But it's good that you acknowledge it in part. Admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery. ========================================== <i>Well, I don’t want to send us back into debating the meaning of words, but I would say that NO “devout” Christian picks and chooses, but many if not most of the people who call themselves Christians seem to be doing exactly as you say. It’s tragic. It’s disgusting. On the other hand, judging Jesus by how one or more of His followers behave is like judging Mozart as a composer by listening to how I play his music.</i> As you said before, Christians represent Jesus and Christianity. That's my point though. I don't think "devout" Christians exist. Just people who claim they are. You can't follow all the rules and commandments in the bible, because so many of them are contradictory. It would be impossible. Mozart is also a bad example. The Jonas Brothers are a little bit more on par with Jesus. In which case we would be judging you because you played Jonas Brothers music. =========================================== <i>I don’t believe that living perfectly is possible to do. I would be a hypocrite if I led to believe that I did follow God perfectly but I don’t know anyone who would make such a blatantly false claim.</i> Well, so wait. So there's nothing to stop me from accepting Jesus and then going and doing whatever I want? You mean to say that Christianity allows for a free pass and then I can just live my life in sin and everything will be forgiven? Wow, perhaps I misjudged you makarios. That's a great deal. Oh wait, except it's not because there's no god. But I could see how you might like the license to do anything. ============================================= <i>Jarel, the children that starve to death in this world do so because WE let them. The children that are sold into sexual slavery do so because WE let them. We live in a world with sickness and natural disasters, and violence and crime and everything else. Are you trying to blame God for the things that we do? Suffering and tragedy may be hard to reconcile with the way we think God aught to run the show but again, Jesus going to the cross proves that we cannot say that God does not care about us. Tell me, if you were God, how would you have done things differently?</i> Again, the cross doesn't prove anything. He made us defective the begin with. So him offering a limited fix later doesn't make him a good guy. Also, if god loved us, he wouldn't allow bad things to happen. I'm sorry, but that's just how it is. I already answered about what I would do. See above for that. ============================================ <i>I actually know people who work in linguistics and who do Bible translations. To a person they are a working definition of brilliant. They take their task VERY seriously. They are extremely diligent in their task. It kind of hard to talk to them about the Bible because they are forever “Well the Aramaic would for that . . .” or The Greek actually sounds a bit like . . .”</i> You know what? So do I. I know Jewish scholars, Christian scholars, Catholic scholars and even Atheist scholars. Here's the thing though. They admit that while they try to do their best now, there's no way to tell what was changed over the years. (Do not even bother with the dead sea scrolls, that discovery just makes your entire bible look silly on account of you left some books out.) ============================================== <i>I’m sorry man. That sucks. I’m sure you’ve adapted and such but that must have added so many challenges to your life that other people don’t even think of or can’t imagine what it’s like even if you told them about it. You said, I think that because of your struggles you’ve become a stronger person. I’m glad there were at least some positives in this for you.</i> Nah, it wasn't so bad. I'll never be drafted, for one thing. My eye was the least of my worries growing up. ============================================= <i>That’s got to be pretty disappointing. Especially if you were taught, wrongly I might add, that all you had to do was ask. I can see how you might be pretty angry at God for allowing you to be “created” that way AND then not doing something about it, especially when He’s done it for others.</i> Oh? Jesus never said that, did he? "For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Matthew 7:8 "And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." Matthew 17:20 "Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth." Mark 9:23 I think these verses make it pretty clear that Jesus is promising exactly what I wanted as a child. Here's the thing though, I wasn't angry. I wasn't even upset, because why would I be upset with someone who clearly has no power and doesn't exist? All that happened, was I begin to test my beliefs, and they didn't stand up. You would find the same is true except that you can't bear to risk losing your crutch. <i>We’re you teased while growing up? Has it had a negative effect on relationships or can people look past that and see the good in you? Sorry if this is too personal.</i> No, never teased. It's not visually obvious, anyways. No negative effect other than people sneaking up on my blind side to surprise me. And amazingly, my filthy heathen friends don't judge me. It's like they're good people or something. Imagine that. ============================================ <i>Oh yes, even today those who set aside the drive for more, more, more in order to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, house the poor are thought to be nuts.</i> No, it's usually those people who start cults out in forest compounds, and drag in the weak and the destitute and the poor with promises of food, clothing, healing, shelter etc. It's very easy to make people with nothing believe anything. Because they have nothing to lose, they have everything to gain. They will believe any glimmer of hope with no questions. That's how Christianity got started, that's how it maintains itself today. It doesn't change the fact that it's a lie and utter madness. =========================================== <i>I’ve never expected, nor have I received a way out of life’s problems.</i> Yes you do. Don't lie to me. You are looking forward to heaven. Isn't that the ultimate way out of all your problems? You do believe in heaven right? ============================================= <i>What is it that you imagine that I’m missing?</i> Freedom. ============================================= <i>You hope. Tell me something is this your line of thinking; .I had a deep need to be healed .God didn’t heal me .Therefore God doesn’t exist Can you not think of any benefits to hardship, suffering and tragedy?</i> I don't have to hope. There is to date not one single piece of real evidence that god exists. No. That is not my line of thinking. It goes something like this: -I wanted to be healed. -I tested my faith. -The Bible turned out to be false. -I begin to question everything I had once blindly held to be true. -I reassessed my worldview. -I concluded that since there is no evidence for god he does not exist. I certainly can. And I've already told you that I've benefited from my own hardships, tragedies and suffering. But I did it on my own. ============================================= <i>“Someone might think you were saying that you are better than everyone else because you have Jesus.” But I didn’t, did I?</i> Actually... "I’m not saying you aren’t a good person without Jesus. <b>I’m saying that I am a much, much, better person with Jesus."</b> You did say that. I was being facetious. In closing, I'm not sure I need to say anything beyond this post. I've more or less thoroughly explored my arguments and yours I think you've suitably demonstrated that you are a hypocrite, don't really understand your own religion, much less anyone elses' and you don't really know the first think about atheism, debate or logic. It's probably not your fault. Most people who are weak enough to fall for Christianity generally aren't capable in debates or mental pursuits either. I've heard your points, and they sound like those of a man who is miserable and desperately clinging to the one (false) hope he has left in life. I feel pity for you, I really do. But I hope that one day you will learn to walk again, without leaning on superstition and mysticism. I had a good time debating. It's always a pleasure to sharpen my wit on the dull stone of fundamentalism. You can respond of course, if you like, but likely I will not say anymore. After all: "If you could reason with religious people there would be no religious people" Peace. Ah, I see. And the evidence to back up your diagnosis would be what exactly?
Your every post here, and your blog actually. It’s clear that you have a firm belief in the unprovable and irrational. You’ve concocted a false reality for yourself. That’s all the evidence anyone should need.

==============================================
Side-stepping! I didn’t even know you had a point. What is it?
That you’re twisting the definition of words. I said as much. Now you’re just stalling.

===============================================
Not in your world they don’t. Christianity and ONLY Christianity brings forth the concept of the equality of man-kind. In a secular world, if you say you have X units of worth and your neighbour says you have no worth, your neighbour is just as correct as you are. In a secular world what is correct is determined by who has the most power.
Wow, you’re just so wrong it’s pathetic. Christianity is NOT the only religion that brings forth concept of the equality of man-kind. The fact you would even say that tells me you don’t know jack about other religions. You don’t even know anything about humanism, which, you’re attempting to feeble argue against here. Allow me to break it down for you. Christianity is all about equality on the surface. Everyone is evil. Everyone deserves to die and go to hell. Pretty equal so far. However, then you have the Salvation issue where SOME people are less equal than others and get to go to heaven because god picked them. Equality? No. I cite Bhuddism, Wicca, Thelema as religions that are ACTUALLY promoting equality amongst man-kind (and all living things, actually.)
Your one-sided view of things just goes to show you really are just a Bible-thumper.
============================================
If you were God how would you bring about real love and real morality without instituting free will choice?
I would man up, and be a god who forgives his creations no matter what they do and allow them to see the consequences of their actions for what they are and allow them to make it right. I would allow everyone into heaven, and let those who did not want to live in heaven with me go elsewhere of their own free will. I would still watch over them and protect them, but I would not tell them how to live or what to believe. Finally, most importantly, I would NEVER punish anyone disproportionally to their crimes. I.E. No hell.
===========================================
Why do you only finish about 2/3’s of your statements? I see the entire thread with nothing left unfinished. It’s probably your computer.
==========================================
You should get out your dictionary and look up murder. God says, “Thou shalt not murder.” Sometimes killing is required.
Maybe you should go research the fact that scholars cannot agree on whether murder or kill is the correct translation. Until recently, most if not all translations said “Thou shalt not kill.” The murder controversy arose because someone noticed that hey, god sure has people break that commandment a lot in the bible. There’s a case for both sides of the argument, so you’re hardly right. Nice try though.
===========================================
Do you ever feel kind of schizophrenic living a belief system where you constantly have to jump back and forth between saying God is real when you want to find fault with Him and saying He isn’t real the rest of the time?
Belief system? I don’t have a belief system. A belief system suggests that I need to believe in things that I cannot demonstratively prove. You have a belief system, I have empirical science. As for referring to god as real, I have never done so. I maintain that he does not exist. However, the mental construct that is the ideas and concepts that you ascribe to him, are laughable in their contradiction of terms. The most obvious of which is that he is ultimate goodness and love and defines morality and yet he even causes evil to happen or permits it and will send his beloved children to hell where they will be separated from him for eternity in anguish. On top of which, Christianity is responsible for some of the worst atrocities in human history in the name of your ‘god’. So yes, I have a problem with him, even though he doesn’t exist. Because you do exist, and you’re following his harmful teachings. I, and many others, find it easier to blame your delusions for what you do rather than you yourselves. After all, you didn’t come up with Christianity, someone put that idea in your head. Believe it or not, we atheists care about you theists. You’re not only harming others, you’re usually harming yourselves, or at least missing out on what life has to offer. We want to help you.
=======================================
Is that what you’re saying? That you don’t know what God requires from you. Are you saying you don’t know the consequences of rejecting God or denying His existence? Because if that’s what you’re saying that would make you a liar of grand proportions.
No, what I’m saying is that if god is really the ultimate good and knows everything, all he would need to do would be to reveal himself to me and explain why I need to accept him. If he’s right, there’s no way I could argue with him. But he chooses to withhold information that might affect my decision, in effect leaving me without enough information to really make a call either way. Since that’s an irrational thing to do for someone who is all knowing (he must know that I have my doubts for this very reason) and because he loves each and everyone of us, logically (a trait we picked up from him)he should just come explain the situation to me and then of course, I would know enough to repent and seek salvation or what have you. Since he chooses NOT to pursue that course, I am forced to one of two conclusions. A) One or more of those statements attributed to him is false. Which, since they’re in the bible, and the bible is the infallible word of god, invalidates the entire religion. or B) God does not exist. Either way, I’m not missing anything. (You did go to school right? Sometimes I wonder about you Christians. Basic logic seems to escape you)
==========================================
Justice will punish someone and God is just. Atheists, on the one hand complain that God’s sense of justice is unlike a human understanding of justice, but then on the other hand atheists demand that crimes against God should go unpunished. There’s that schizophrenic mind-set again.
You can’t have a crime against the ultimate being in the universe any more than a single ant can offend a blue whale. It’s absurd. You set the terms for the existence of your god in your bible, and when we logical-minded atheists go and say “well, that’s ridiculous because if what you’re saying is true, it invalidates your entire religion” you claim that god has some unfathomable justice system. (Please see the above post as to why that is just bullshit and further invalidates your god)
As for atheists being schizo. We don’t believe in an unprovable invisible sky spirit.
===========================================
“you say and cares for his children equally and could never bear to send them away to hell for eternity.”

Where have I said that?
Are you saying that god is not love and does not value human beings equally? And I never said you said that specifically, I said that you said he is Love, and it follows that as he is Love, he would be unable to allow hell to exist, as infinite punishment for anything is anathema to love. You can’t have it both ways. Either god is love and there is no hell or sin, or he is not love and he just enjoys damning us to hell. Pick one.
===========================================
I don’t think that changing the subject is very effective at a time like this. The reason you’re furious is precisely because you DO understand – Period! As I understand it, the people that God blinds or gives “ears that cannot hear,” are those who He knows will not accept His offer of salvation. His offer of salvation is on the table for you right this moment. It’s yours to accept or reject. However, if you reject this offer you can hardly blame God since you’re the one who is doing the rejecting. It’s a bit like a person who is starving to death and yet lives right next door to a food bank. He refuses to go next door to get free food and then blames the food bank for him starving to death.
So what you’re saying is that we have no free will. Ok. Also, you food bank analogy is broken, allow me to fix it. You’re starving, and there’s a food bank next door, except that you know that the person who runs it kills babies and makes meat pies out of them and that’s what you get to eat. You get to live, by crawling over the bodies of everyone who didn’t want to support that atrocity. It would be like if to get into heaven, you had to walk on a bridge over hell. And you see the injustice of god before you walk into heaven. Even if I thought your god existed, he is far too unjust, unfair and evil for me to want to spend eternity with him. He sends babies to hell! Why in the world would anyone worship him?

Look, Jarael, I know that there are some tough things in the Bible. I know that the teachings of Jesus are difficult to follow. But I also know that in the end, no one is going to be able to blame God for being unfair. There may be a lot of things we’ll never understand this side of heaven, but we can know for a fact that God is Love, God is Just and God is fair. Our circumstances don’t change that.
No you don’t. You don’t know how anything is going to end. No one does. Ok, so God is Love, God is Just and God is Fair. But the fact that he isn’t, to us, doesn’t change that? Excuse me? Are you high? There is nothing loving, just or fair about eternal damnation because we have free will. And don’t give me the choice crap, not everyone even hears about Jesus. And what about people before him, eh? Is that just and fair for them too? No. Your every argument is rife with fallacy. I think I might just wretch.
===========================================
Here is something I simply don’t understand about atheists. I know this is a very generalised statement but it just seems to me that atheists as a rule have virtually zero insight into who they really are. I used to think that it was a put on; that it was something they just said to drive other people crazy. I’m beginning to think that it’s something that is maybe a genetic flaw or mutation or something. Remember when you mentioned Ted Bundy and all the others. You say that you’re much better than they are. And since the world judges people by their actions and not their motives (the exact opposite from God) most people would agree with you. But I say, the only difference between you and I and those guys is circumstance. The line that applies is, “There but for the grace of God go I.” If I had been born in Ted Bundy’s place and raised as he was raised etc. how could I say that I wouldn’t do something equally horrific. I believe very strongly and there are scores of studies to back this up, that we, all of us have to potential to be monsters or saints. All that separates us, and this is what the survivor at Nuremberg was saying, is time and place. Ok, so, no free will again? You’re certainly changing your tune. Here’s the thing, the reason you think atheists have zero insight into who they are, is because you only have “Christian” as an identity, so you’re too narrow-minded to see anything but that. You think “They’re not a Christian, so they must not know who they are.” I don’t believe in destiny, just so you know. I don’t believe that time and place is all that separates us. I want you to read something for me. http://www.viruscomix.com/page474.html
This illustrates beautifully that we all have a choice in what we become.
============================================
I thought tA stood for The Atheist, the name of your blog.
I’m just a guest here like you.
===========================================
It doesn’t seem like you’re aware of it.
And how’s that free will paradox working out for you? We have free will, but as you said earlier “All that separates us, and this is what the survivor at Nuremberg was saying, is time and place.” Oh. Huh. I guess you’re not aware of it at all. Please find my own hypocrisy and point it out for me. Bonus points if I wasn’t aware of it. (Hint: You’re not gonna get any bonus points.)
============================================
Yes, not in degree, necessarily but because of what we stand for, because of who we represent. You and I might possess the same degree of hypocrisy but mine is worse precisely because of who I represent. You and I might be liars to the same degree but mine is worse because profess to believe that lying is wrong. For you to lie is really no big deal. You don’t claim lying is wrong. You, as an atheist could even say lying is alright and there would really be nothing to condemn you for, from a secular point of view that is.

Yes. In addition to the fact that your entire belief structure is hypocritical, and the fact that most of your don’t practice what you preach but still condemn others for it. You in addition, claim to be better than all of us, and yet you really aren’t.

But it’s good that you acknowledge it in part. Admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery.
==========================================
Well, I don’t want to send us back into debating the meaning of words, but I would say that NO “devout” Christian picks and chooses, but many if not most of the people who call themselves Christians seem to be doing exactly as you say. It’s tragic. It’s disgusting. On the other hand, judging Jesus by how one or more of His followers behave is like judging Mozart as a composer by listening to how I play his music.
As you said before, Christians represent Jesus and Christianity. That’s my point though. I don’t think “devout” Christians exist. Just people who claim they are. You can’t follow all the rules and commandments in the bible, because so many of them are contradictory. It would be impossible. Mozart is also a bad example. The Jonas Brothers are a little bit more on par with Jesus. In which case we would be judging you because you played Jonas Brothers music.
===========================================
I don’t believe that living perfectly is possible to do. I would be a hypocrite if I led to believe that I did follow God perfectly but I don’t know anyone who would make such a blatantly false claim.
Well, so wait. So there’s nothing to stop me from accepting Jesus and then going and doing whatever I want? You mean to say that Christianity allows for a free pass and then I can just live my life in sin and everything will be forgiven? Wow, perhaps I misjudged you makarios. That’s a great deal. Oh wait, except it’s not because there’s no god. But I could see how you might like the license to do anything.
=============================================
Jarel, the children that starve to death in this world do so because WE let them. The children that are sold into sexual slavery do so because WE let them. We live in a world with sickness and natural disasters, and violence and crime and everything else. Are you trying to blame God for the things that we do? Suffering and tragedy may be hard to reconcile with the way we think God aught to run the show but again, Jesus going to the cross proves that we cannot say that God does not care about us.

Tell me, if you were God, how would you have done things differently?
Again, the cross doesn’t prove anything. He made us defective the begin with. So him offering a limited fix later doesn’t make him a good guy.

Also, if god loved us, he wouldn’t allow bad things to happen. I’m sorry, but that’s just how it is.

I already answered about what I would do. See above for that.
============================================
I actually know people who work in linguistics and who do Bible translations. To a person they are a working definition of brilliant. They take their task VERY seriously. They are extremely diligent in their task. It kind of hard to talk to them about the Bible because they are forever “Well the Aramaic would for that . . .” or The Greek actually sounds a bit like . . .”

You know what? So do I. I know Jewish scholars, Christian scholars, Catholic scholars and even Atheist scholars. Here’s the thing though. They admit that while they try to do their best now, there’s no way to tell what was changed over the years. (Do not even bother with the dead sea scrolls, that discovery just makes your entire bible look silly on account of you left some books out.)
==============================================
I’m sorry man. That sucks. I’m sure you’ve adapted and such but that must have added so many challenges to your life that other people don’t even think of or can’t imagine what it’s like even if you told them about it. You said, I think that because of your struggles you’ve become a stronger person. I’m glad there were at least some positives in this for you.
Nah, it wasn’t so bad. I’ll never be drafted, for one thing. My eye was the least of my worries growing up.
=============================================
That’s got to be pretty disappointing. Especially if you were taught, wrongly I might add, that all you had to do was ask. I can see how you might be pretty angry at God for allowing you to be “created” that way AND then not doing something about it, especially when He’s done it for others. Oh? Jesus never said that, did he? “For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.” Matthew 7:8 “And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.” Matthew 17:20 “Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.” Mark 9:23
I think these verses make it pretty clear that Jesus is promising exactly what I wanted as a child. Here’s the thing though, I wasn’t angry. I wasn’t even upset, because why would I be upset with someone who clearly has no power and doesn’t exist? All that happened, was I begin to test my beliefs, and they didn’t stand up. You would find the same is true except that you can’t bear to risk losing your crutch.

We’re you teased while growing up? Has it had a negative effect on relationships or can people look past that and see the good in you? Sorry if this is too personal. No, never teased. It’s not visually obvious, anyways. No negative effect other than people sneaking up on my blind side to surprise me. And amazingly, my filthy heathen friends don’t judge me. It’s like they’re good people or something. Imagine that.
============================================
Oh yes, even today those who set aside the drive for more, more, more in order to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, house the poor are thought to be nuts.
No, it’s usually those people who start cults out in forest compounds, and drag in the weak and the destitute and the poor with promises of food, clothing, healing, shelter etc. It’s very easy to make people with nothing believe anything. Because they have nothing to lose, they have everything to gain. They will believe any glimmer of hope with no questions. That’s how Christianity got started, that’s how it maintains itself today. It doesn’t change the fact that it’s a lie and utter madness.
===========================================
I’ve never expected, nor have I received a way out of life’s problems. Yes you do. Don’t lie to me. You are looking forward to heaven. Isn’t that the ultimate way out of all your problems? You do believe in heaven right?
=============================================
What is it that you imagine that I’m missing?
Freedom.
=============================================
You hope. Tell me something is this your line of thinking;
.I had a deep need to be healed
.God didn’t heal me
.Therefore God doesn’t exist

Can you not think of any benefits to hardship, suffering and tragedy?
I don’t have to hope. There is to date not one single piece of real evidence that god exists.
No. That is not my line of thinking. It goes something like this:
-I wanted to be healed.
-I tested my faith.
-The Bible turned out to be false.
-I begin to question everything I had once blindly held to be true.
-I reassessed my worldview.
-I concluded that since there is no evidence for god he does not exist.

I certainly can. And I’ve already told you that I’ve benefited from my own hardships, tragedies and suffering. But I did it on my own.
=============================================
“Someone might think you were saying that you are better than everyone else because you have Jesus.”

But I didn’t, did I? Actually… “I’m not saying you aren’t a good person without Jesus. I’m saying that I am a much, much, better person with Jesus.”

You did say that. I was being facetious.

In closing, I’m not sure I need to say anything beyond this post. I’ve more or less thoroughly explored my arguments and yours I think you’ve suitably demonstrated that you are a hypocrite, don’t really understand your own religion, much less anyone elses’ and you don’t really know the first think about atheism, debate or logic. It’s probably not your fault. Most people who are weak enough to fall for Christianity generally aren’t capable in debates or mental pursuits either. I’ve heard your points, and they sound like those of a man who is miserable and desperately clinging to the one (false) hope he has left in life. I feel pity for you, I really do. But I hope that one day you will learn to walk again, without leaning on superstition and mysticism.

I had a good time debating. It’s always a pleasure to sharpen my wit on the dull stone of fundamentalism. You can respond of course, if you like, but likely I will not say anymore. After all: “If you could reason with religious people there would be no religious people”

Peace.

]]> By: makarios http://www.the-atheist.com/the-atheists-challenge-22-questions/#comment-1021 makarios Tue, 02 Jun 2009 04:43:52 +0000 http://www.the-atheist.com/?p=211#comment-1021 “Anecdotes without evidence aren't proof of anything except mental problems” Ah, I see. And the evidence to back up your diagnosis would be what exactly? ============= “Again, you're doing nothing but side-stepping the real issue I was pointing out.” Side-stepping! I didn’t even know you had a point. What is it? ========== “Human beings have intrinsic value.” Not in your world they don’t. Christianity and ONLY Christianity brings forth the concept of the equality of man-kind. In a secular world, if you say you have X units of worth and your neighbour says you have no worth, your neighbour is just as correct as you are. In a secular world what is correct is determined by who has the most power. =========== “He didn't need to do that” If you were God how would you bring about real love and real morality without instituting free will choice? ==== “My point still stands, regardless of how Sin is supposed to work in your imaginary world, it still serves o” Why do you only finish about 2/3's of your statements? ===== “Thou shalt not kill.” You should get out your dictionary and look up murder. God says, “Thou shalt not murder.” Sometimes killing is required. ============ Do you ever feel kind of schizophrenic living a belief system where you constantly have to jump back and forth between saying God is real when you want to find fault with Him and saying He isn’t real the rest of the time? ================ “But what if the sign isn't there?” Is that what you’re saying? That you don’t know what God requires from you. Are you saying you don’t know the consequences of rejecting God or denying His existence? Because if that’s what you’re saying that would make you a liar of grand proportions. ========= It's not fair because Love would never punish someone for not loving. Justice will punish someone and God is just. Atheists, on the one hand complain that God’s sense of justice is unlike a human understanding of justice, but then on the other hand atheists demand that crimes against God should go unpunished. There’s that schizophrenic mind-set again. ============ “you say and cares for his children equally and could never bear to send them away to hell for eternity.” Where have I said that? ============= <i>Oh but we CAN understand. You understand perfectly well what your options are and it makes you furious. The reason you’re furious is precisely because you DO understand.</i> I don’t think that changing the subject is very effective at a time like this. The reason you’re furious is precisely because you DO understand - Period! As I understand it, the people that God blinds or gives “ears that cannot hear,” are those who He knows will not accept His offer of salvation. His offer of salvation is on the table for you right this moment. It’s yours to accept or reject. However, if you reject this offer you can hardly blame God since you’re the one who is doing the rejecting. It’s a bit like a person who is starving to death and yet lives right next door to a food bank. He refuses to go next door to get free food and then blames the food bank for him starving to death. Look, Jarael, I know that there are some tough things in the Bible. I know that the teachings of Jesus are difficult to follow. But I also know that in the end, no one is going to be able to blame God for being unfair. There may be a lot of things we’ll never understand this side of heaven, but we can know for a fact that God is Love, God is Just and God is fair. Our circumstances don't change that. ========= “We can't know why he said that.” Or we could just believe him and not assume that he's lying. Do you always assume the worst about people? Here is something I simply don’t understand about atheists. I know this is a very generalised statement but it just seems to me that atheists as a rule have virtually zero insight into who they really are. I used to think that it was a put on; that it was something they just said to drive other people crazy. I’m beginning to think that it’s something that is maybe a genetic flaw or mutation or something. Remember when you mentioned Ted Bundy and all the others. You say that you’re much better than they are. And since the world judges people by their actions and not their motives (the exact opposite from God) most people would agree with you. But I say, the only difference between you and I and those guys is circumstance. The line that applies is, “There but for the grace of God go I.” If I had been born in Ted Bundy’s place and raised as he was raised etc. how could I say that I wouldn’t do something equally horrific. I believe very strongly and there are scores of studies to back this up, that we, all of us have to potential to be monsters or saints. All that separates us, and this is what the survivor at Nuremberg was saying, is time and place. =============== “That is the second time you've called me TA.” I thought tA stood for The Atheist, the name of your blog. ===================== “Everyone is a hypocrite to some degree. Most people are aware they're doing it.” It doesn’t seem like you’re aware of it. =========== “Christians however, are the worst kind of hypocrites.” Yes, not in degree, necessarily but because of what we stand for, because of who we represent. You and I might possess the same degree of hypocrisy but mine is worse precisely because of who I represent. You and I might be liars to the same degree but mine is worse because profess to believe that lying is wrong. For you to lie is really no big deal. You don’t claim lying is wrong. You, as an atheist could even say lying is alright and there would really be nothing to condemn you for, from a secular point of view that is. ========= “most devout Christians simply choose to pick what rules from their Bible they'll follow.” Well, I don’t want to send us back into debating the meaning of words, but I would say that NO “devout” Christian picks and chooses, but many if not most of the people who call themselves Christians seem to be doing exactly as you say. It’s tragic. It’s disgusting. On the other hand, judging Jesus by how one or more of His followers behave is like judging Mozart as a composer by listening to how I play his music. ========= “If you are not perfectly following the Bible, you are a hypocrite of faith." I don’t believe that living perfectly is possible to do. I would be a hypocrite if I led to believe that I did follow God perfectly but I don’t know anyone who would make such a blatantly false claim. ============== “As for contradictions... you do know what hypocrisy is, right?” Well, I thought I did. It’s pretending to be something that I’m not. Right? I still don’t see how a book having contradictions could make me a hypocrite. ============================================ “Good work dodging the question.” Jarel, the children that starve to death in this world do so because WE let them. The children that are sold into sexual slavery do so because WE let them. We live in a world with sickness and natural disasters, and violence and crime and everything else. Are you trying to blame God for the things that we do? Suffering and tragedy may be hard to reconcile with the way we think God aught to run the show but again, Jesus going to the cross proves that we cannot say that God does not care about us. Tell me, if you were God, how would you have done things differently? ========== “Your contemporary translation is based on the bias of the translators throughout history.” I actually know people who work in linguistics and who do Bible translations. To a person they are a working definition of brilliant. They take their task VERY seriously. They are extremely diligent in their task. It kind of hard to talk to them about the Bible because they are forever "Well the Aramaic would for that . . ." or The Greek actually sounds a bit like . . ." ============ “I'm completely blind in that eye.” I’m sorry man. That sucks. I’m sure you’ve adapted and such but that must have added so many challenges to your life that other people don’t even think of or can’t imagine what it’s like even if you told them about it. You said, I think that because of your struggles you’ve become a stronger person. I'm glad there were at least some positives in this for you. ========== “You know what happened? Nothing” That’s got to be pretty disappointing. Especially if you were taught, wrongly I might add, that all you had to do was ask. I can see how you might be pretty angry at God for allowing you to be “created” that way AND then not doing something about it, especially when He’s done it for others. We’re you teased while growing up? Has it had a negative effect on relationships or can people look past that and see the good in you? Sorry if this is too personal. =================================== “Because if he had spoke to the learned and the wise they would have called him a fool and laughed him out.” Oh yes, even today those who set aside the drive for more, more, more in order to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, house the poor are thought to be nuts. =============== “You were vulnerable and weak and you thought you had a way out.” I’ve never expected, nor have I received a way out of life's problems. Faith in Jesus does not provide good feelings. Rather it sustains me in the absence of good feelings. ========= “I hope before you die you realize that there was more to life and you missed out.” What is it that you imagine that I’m missing? ========== “Lucky for me he doesn’t exist.” You hope. Tell me something is this your line of thinking; .I had a deep need to be healed .God didn’t heal me .Therefore God doesn’t exist Can you not think of any benefits to hardship, suffering and tragedy? ========= “Someone might think you were saying that you are better than everyone else because you have Jesus.” But I didn’t, did I? ======== “Anecdotes without evidence aren’t proof of anything except mental problems”

Ah, I see. And the evidence to back up your diagnosis would be what exactly?
=============
“Again, you’re doing nothing but side-stepping the real issue I was pointing out.”

Side-stepping! I didn’t even know you had a point. What is it?
==========
“Human beings have intrinsic value.”

Not in your world they don’t. Christianity and ONLY Christianity brings forth the concept of the equality of man-kind. In a secular world, if you say you have X units of worth and your neighbour says you have no worth, your neighbour is just as correct as you are. In a secular world what is correct is determined by who has the most power.
===========
“He didn’t need to do that”

If you were God how would you bring about real love and real morality without instituting free will choice?
====
“My point still stands, regardless of how Sin is supposed to work in your imaginary world, it still serves o”

Why do you only finish about 2/3′s of your statements?
=====
“Thou shalt not kill.”

You should get out your dictionary and look up murder. God says, “Thou shalt not murder.” Sometimes killing is required.
============
Do you ever feel kind of schizophrenic living a belief system where you constantly have to jump back and forth between saying God is real when you want to find fault with Him and saying He isn’t real the rest of the time?
================
“But what if the sign isn’t there?”

Is that what you’re saying? That you don’t know what God requires from you. Are you saying you don’t know the consequences of rejecting God or denying His existence? Because if that’s what you’re saying that would make you a liar of grand proportions.
=========
It’s not fair because Love would never punish someone for not loving.

Justice will punish someone and God is just. Atheists, on the one hand complain that God’s sense of justice is unlike a human understanding of justice, but then on the other hand atheists demand that crimes against God should go unpunished. There’s that schizophrenic mind-set again.
============
“you say and cares for his children equally and could never bear to send them away to hell for eternity.”

Where have I said that?
=============
Oh but we CAN understand. You understand perfectly well what your options are and it makes you furious. The reason you’re furious is precisely because you DO understand.

I don’t think that changing the subject is very effective at a time like this. The reason you’re furious is precisely because you DO understand – Period! As I understand it, the people that God blinds or gives “ears that cannot hear,” are those who He knows will not accept His offer of salvation. His offer of salvation is on the table for you right this moment. It’s yours to accept or reject. However, if you reject this offer you can hardly blame God since you’re the one who is doing the rejecting. It’s a bit like a person who is starving to death and yet lives right next door to a food bank. He refuses to go next door to get free food and then blames the food bank for him starving to death.

Look, Jarael, I know that there are some tough things in the Bible. I know that the teachings of Jesus are difficult to follow. But I also know that in the end, no one is going to be able to blame God for being unfair. There may be a lot of things we’ll never understand this side of heaven, but we can know for a fact that God is Love, God is Just and God is fair. Our circumstances don’t change that.
=========
“We can’t know why he said that.”

Or we could just believe him and not assume that he’s lying. Do you always assume the worst about people?

Here is something I simply don’t understand about atheists. I know this is a very generalised statement but it just seems to me that atheists as a rule have virtually zero insight into who they really are. I used to think that it was a put on; that it was something they just said to drive other people crazy. I’m beginning to think that it’s something that is maybe a genetic flaw or mutation or something. Remember when you mentioned Ted Bundy and all the others. You say that you’re much better than they are. And since the world judges people by their actions and not their motives (the exact opposite from God) most people would agree with you. But I say, the only difference between you and I and those guys is circumstance. The line that applies is, “There but for the grace of God go I.” If I had been born in Ted Bundy’s place and raised as he was raised etc. how could I say that I wouldn’t do something equally horrific. I believe very strongly and there are scores of studies to back this up, that we, all of us have to potential to be monsters or saints. All that separates us, and this is what the survivor at Nuremberg was saying, is time and place.
===============
“That is the second time you’ve called me TA.”

I thought tA stood for The Atheist, the name of your blog.
=====================
“Everyone is a hypocrite to some degree. Most people are aware they’re doing it.”

It doesn’t seem like you’re aware of it.
===========

“Christians however, are the worst kind of hypocrites.”

Yes, not in degree, necessarily but because of what we stand for, because of who we represent. You and I might possess the same degree of hypocrisy but mine is worse precisely because of who I represent. You and I might be liars to the same degree but mine is worse because profess to believe that lying is wrong. For you to lie is really no big deal. You don’t claim lying is wrong. You, as an atheist could even say lying is alright and there would really be nothing to condemn you for, from a secular point of view that is.
=========
“most devout Christians simply choose to pick what rules from their Bible they’ll follow.”

Well, I don’t want to send us back into debating the meaning of words, but I would say that NO “devout” Christian picks and chooses, but many if not most of the people who call themselves Christians seem to be doing exactly as you say. It’s tragic. It’s disgusting. On the other hand, judging Jesus by how one or more of His followers behave is like judging Mozart as a composer by listening to how I play his music.
=========
“If you are not perfectly following the Bible, you are a hypocrite of faith.”

I don’t believe that living perfectly is possible to do. I would be a hypocrite if I led to believe that I did follow God perfectly but I don’t know anyone who would make such a blatantly false claim.
==============
“As for contradictions… you do know what hypocrisy is, right?”

Well, I thought I did. It’s pretending to be something that I’m not. Right? I still don’t see how a book having contradictions could make me a hypocrite.
============================================
“Good work dodging the question.”

Jarel, the children that starve to death in this world do so because WE let them. The children that are sold into sexual slavery do so because WE let them. We live in a world with sickness and natural disasters, and violence and crime and everything else. Are you trying to blame God for the things that we do? Suffering and tragedy may be hard to reconcile with the way we think God aught to run the show but again, Jesus going to the cross proves that we cannot say that God does not care about us.

Tell me, if you were God, how would you have done things differently?
==========
“Your contemporary translation is based on the bias of the translators throughout history.”

I actually know people who work in linguistics and who do Bible translations. To a person they are a working definition of brilliant. They take their task VERY seriously. They are extremely diligent in their task. It kind of hard to talk to them about the Bible because they are forever “Well the Aramaic would for that . . .” or The Greek actually sounds a bit like . . .”
============
“I’m completely blind in that eye.”

I’m sorry man. That sucks. I’m sure you’ve adapted and such but that must have added so many challenges to your life that other people don’t even think of or can’t imagine what it’s like even if you told them about it. You said, I think that because of your struggles you’ve become a stronger person. I’m glad there were at least some positives in this for you.
==========
“You know what happened? Nothing”

That’s got to be pretty disappointing. Especially if you were taught, wrongly I might add, that all you had to do was ask. I can see how you might be pretty angry at God for allowing you to be “created” that way AND then not doing something about it, especially when He’s done it for others.

We’re you teased while growing up? Has it had a negative effect on relationships or can people look past that and see the good in you? Sorry if this is too personal.
===================================
“Because if he had spoke to the learned and the wise they would have called him a fool and laughed him out.”

Oh yes, even today those who set aside the drive for more, more, more in order to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, house the poor are thought to be nuts.
===============
“You were vulnerable and weak and you thought you had a way out.”

I’ve never expected, nor have I received a way out of life’s problems. Faith in Jesus does not provide good feelings. Rather it sustains me in the absence of good feelings.
=========
“I hope before you die you realize that there was more to life and you missed out.”

What is it that you imagine that I’m missing?
==========
“Lucky for me he doesn’t exist.”

You hope. Tell me something is this your line of thinking;
.I had a deep need to be healed
.God didn’t heal me
.Therefore God doesn’t exist

Can you not think of any benefits to hardship, suffering and tragedy?
=========

“Someone might think you were saying that you are better than everyone else because you have Jesus.”

But I didn’t, did I?
========

]]>