I tend not to shy away from my atheism. If someone wants to discuss religion or theism, I will happily oblige. This position has lead me to have many interesting conversations over the years with people of many different religions and backgrounds, and this has continued on this blog. I’ve noticed a number of themes, some common strands that tend to run through the conversations I have with those who are religious. There are certain arguments, certain propositions that continually come up. I don’t know if these are points those with religion are instructed to raise, whether there’s a list of points to use in their attempted conversations, or not, but they are common, and searching this blog and others like it you will see them come up time and time again. So with that in mind, I thought I’d list them here and respond to them individually. I’ll add to them if need be and, of course, the comments are always open if you agree / disagree with any points here.
Evolution is a Theory and is not Scientifically Sound
This is an argument that tends to come up less and less as the number of fundamentalist creationists fall. Put simply, they believe that evolution, and by association natural selection, cannot be proven. This perceived absence of scientific proof (not a measure the apply to any other aspects of their religion, clearly) means that the creationist view of our origins must be true.
People who truly believe this are difficult to argue with. The mechanics of evolution have been proven. It’s reproducible in a laboratory situation and therefore there’s no real debate to be had. What is potentially up for debate is whether we, as humans, are evolved from primates. There are some gaps in the evolutionary process, but the evidence is overwhelming. For example, we still have the muscles in our bodies that are used by primates but not us (e.g. the palmaris longus muscle), and as a result the muscle goes undeveloped and an increasing number of humans are born without it with no ill effect. If we were designed, then why would our designer give us an under-developed muscle that we never use that also happens to be present in an animal we share a significant amount of DNA with? Laziness? Lack of understanding? Inefficiency? And that is just one example, there are many more to be found within our bodies and thousands more out in nature.
It Requires More Faith to be an Atheist than not
The malformed logic here goes that the non-existence of a deity can never be proven, ergo, atheists must have “faith” that there is no deity. Of course this argument relies on a foundation of misunderstanding. The default position is to not believe in something for which there is no evidence of. It requires no faith to not believe in the existence of Godzilla, because there is no evidence to support its existence. If there was evidence to support a claim, if there was any logical, sensible, reason to believe in something, then it would require faith to not believe in it.
The Non-Existence of God Cannot be proven, ever.
This leads on from the misguided logic seen in the above statement, that atheists require faith because the non-existence of God cannot be proven, therefore our position can never be confirmed. I’ve already made a pretty good stab at disproving the Christian God, and I’m sure that with a little research many other popular deities could be similarly disproved. Of course, my argument only logically disproves the definition of the Christian God, not the being itself. But if we know the definition is incorrect, then the foundation of the religion must be brought into question.
There are no Atheists in Foxholes
I’ve had this posed to me on a number of occasions and, I’m afraid to say, I can’t see the point of the argument. Whether it is that, really, we all believe in a God but it requires some sort of epiphany to bring it out in us (like a rash, perhaps), or whether they believe that God touches people in their hour of need, I’m not sure. What I am sure of, is that there’s nothing like intense stress and trauma to inhibit people’s critical and logical thinking. I’m also sure that the idea of deities is so prevalent in our culture that saying “God help us” when the bullets are flying is no necessarily always a confirmation of belief in such a being. Yet no doubt, those who utter the words only to survive against the odds will put it down to heavenly intervention (those who don’t make it will be unable to make such a choice).
I have had Prayers Answered
No, I’m afraid you haven’t. You have asked for something to happen, and then it has happened. Whenever you claim to have had a prayer answered, think about the ones that have not been answered. And don’t lie to yourself by believing it’s all part of your deities plan, it’s not, there is no plan, and there is no deity. Always remember that correlation does not always equal causation. Could it be that if you wanted something to happen so much that you dared to pray for it, that your own motivated, driven actions would have helped the cause?
God has Spoken to me
Again, afraid not. If you are hearing voices in your head, you should seek professional help. That is especially true if the voices claim to be a deity of any kind. It is a medical condition called schizophrenia, whether the voice claims to be a deity or not, and regardless of whether you believe it is the vice of a deity, the voice is coming from you, and telling you what you want to hear.
My Holy Book is Accurate, I have Proof
Just because parts of a holy book portray a reasonably accurate representation of a certain period of history, it does not mean that the entire book is accurate. It can be clearly seen in modern literature that fictional works borrow heavily from real world locations and scenarios in order for them to appear more realistic. There is no historical proof of any miracles described in any holy book occurring. Given the number of holy books, and the number of miracles in each one, one would assume that there would be some sort of evidence for at least one of the miracles? But alas there is not, in the same way there is no evidence of Tokyo being destroyed by our old friend Godzilla, despite it being described in numerous forms of media and the city of Tokyo being portrayed quite accurately.
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I just want to add a quick note to say that although I am publishing this post now, I intend to keep updating it as I come across other arguments for religion. If you want me to add anything, or address your own personal reason for believing in whichever deity you chose, then please leave a comment and I’ll be happy to oblige. The comments are always open and are integral to this site.
Related posts:
Somehow my long response got lost … maybe it was God’s will
Atheist, I enjoy your posts because you don’t seem to be angry as most of your fellow atheists are. I find it strange that people who think that we poor theists who just haven’t quite evolved enough to give up our heavenly teddy bear should be the object of anger, even if we do have an influence on some important contemporary issues. It is rather like being angry at fish for not yet evolving into amphibians.
More interestingly yet, I find myself actually agreeing with you on many of the points you raise in this post. In the way that you have explained them, in fact, I agree with all of them.
Could I ask: what would it take for you to accept that there is a God? I hope I am not maligning Richard Dawkins, but I think somewhere he says that even if a statue of Mary waved to him he would attribute it to a freak coincidence that the random motion of molecules happened to occur in the same direction for some short space of time. If anyone has a “faith” in atheism that would surely be it. That is to say, it is hard to see what could count as proof. As Jesus points out: “Not even if a man should rise from the dead would they believe.”
Proof is a something we don’t possess about anything if we don’t want to accept it. Most scientific proof revolves around the fact that there have been no counter examples that invalidate it. eg gravity = two masses attract, seems to ‘work’ in every known example where no other forces are in play. Most people are prepared to accept the overwhelming evidence and take that as proof, but clearly no one could ‘prove’ that there aren’t some masses somewhere that don’t attract at all. Science always works on a ‘best explanation until something better comes along’ basis, and we’re perfectly OK with this. Newton was not foolish to be corrected in some aspects by Einstein, for example.
Now when it comes to God, who can not be subjected to our senses at all, the only way of demonstrating his existence is by his effects (and actually that is the only way that many sub-atomic particles are known). But even these are material and subject to experimenation and observation. God is wholly outside that. The way to come to knowledge of God is not going to be by experiment, therefore. There can be no scientific proofs (or disproofs) of God, but only philosophical and personal ones.
However, there is a bigger difference than just “zilla” between God and Godzilla or any other disputed being. The questions of life and death, meaning, life after death, suffering, evil, existence etc… are fundamentally human questions, and their significance differs dramatically if God exists or if he doesn’t. Godzilla is entirely inconsequential in this. That is the point of “there are no atheists in foxholes”. It is not so much an argument as an observation. In moments of sheer terror these fundamental questions are invariably – even involuntarily – asked, and so the possibility of God becomes once again a real question. I think that if atheists are to be really honest they must admit a “but what if….?” doubt, and I think theists must accept a “but what if not…?” doubt at times. It is an existential question which will never go away, however many graphs of the increasingly silly intelligentia are plotted.
Finally, how about a second question: would you like there to be a God? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to say that that would prove anything. It would just give some idea of your perception of God.
Jonathan – Thanks for your comments. I don’t consider myself an angry atheist, and I do not consider myself to be angry at religion or those who practice their religion. What does make me angry are some of the acts performed in the name of religion, ranging from wars being waged and terrorist attacks being perpetrated right to way through to suppression of civil liberties and the encroachment of the religion of others on my life, be it through local or national government, society, organisations or other factors. And even then, perhaps angry is too strong a word.
As for your other two questions, it’s something I’ve given thought to but have never really articulated. I think my response would be rather verbose, so I’ll put up a post dedicated to it. I think it’s an important enough point to warrant a dedicated post, look for it shortly!
So…you’re saying that evolution has been proven? Well, if it occurred over millions of years, how can it be proven in a lab? Unless you took several million years to do so.
Also, by saying that evolution is real you’re saying that I’m a human, who happens to be an ape, who happens to be a dog-like creature, who happens to be a fish-like creature, who happens to be a tadpole-like creature, who happens to be a one-cell organism? That’s SICK!
Kad Aaray – Unfortunately it seems as if you have a fairly fundamental misunderstanding of evolution. Not only are you confused by rate of evolution (measured by generations, not time) but you seem confused regarding the difference between you personally and the species you belong to. No one is suggesting that you as a person is currently a single celled organism, that’s patently ridiculous. What we are saying is that the species you belong to used to be (note my choice of tense).
As for proving evolution. Well evolution is mutations, or changes that occur between generations. Natural Selection explains how only the mutations that best suit the environment survive to propagate. Our generations last tens of years, so observing changes that occur subtlety over thousands of years is difficult (but not impossible, there are changes between single human generations that can be observed). However, we can observe evolution on much shorter time scale by observing species which experience shorter generations. And we have.
Of course, there’s also the numerous examples of intermediary fossils that have been discovered which show species mid transition. If you’re interested in learning the truth, I’d recommend Reading some peer reviewed journals that discuss speciation.
I saw an angel on an acid trip once. That proves that they exist.
There’s absolutely no point or sense in being an ‘angry’ anything. Anger to me is potentially a damaging if not dangerous emotion which to state the obvious clearly and often does lead to dire consequences.
It certainly has no place in any reasoned debate or indeed any rational human interaction and its uncontrolled manifestation is totally a dysfunctional reaction and should have no domain on the human psyche.
Having read what I just wrote, I’m unsure if I have completely and accurately described my understanding of this emotion.
What I have personally observed as I allegedly supposed to grow older and wiser (if not sillier)is that my whole range of emotions have waned in terms of scope and intensity apart perhaps from the feelings of deep affection and protective instincts I have towards my grand children, particularly the youngest one.
That said I should mention that over the course of my some 7 decades of self-awareness I have vacillated between weak and strong atheistic beliefs though have witnessed the benefits, values and contributions made by religions which practice positive and humanistic ideals.
you guys are nerds.
i am a teen girl who thinks you just dont want to be accountable to God for ur sins. You just think this beautiful earth just happened to become so? God is my savior, and no matter what you say will make me believe otherwise. i cant believe ur that numb! if u choose never to believe in God, then i want u to remember me in when you stand before our HOly God.