I came across the image to the right today on the Friendly Atheist. As many people have pointed out, remove the word “magic” and you’re pretty much there. In case you can’t see it (click to enlarge) it says:
Atheism
The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs.
I’ve tried to come up with my very description of religion, well really Christianity, just to see how it fits in with the description of Atheism. I’ve posted it below.
How would your definition of Religion read?
No related posts.
ok underoath, i respect you, it seems as if you actually have some support, well that supports you, other christians are retarted and cant defend them selves because their retarted, not literally but anyway, the perfect conditions of the earth to make life was a coincidence, there ar trillions of different gallaxies, that means that there are numberless solar systems, and those conditions were bound to happen eventually, and they probobly happened hundreds of times, and will continue to happen, as for us, our traits are a result of adapting to the enviornment that just happened to be perfect for life, and who says life cant adapt to different coditions. and there is something deep athiests and agnostics beleive in, that is both the power of the human mind, which comes from a long line of humans evolving and adapting, and when you study early man and prehistory, you start to realize, it wasnt until the later species of man, that we were capable of creating abstract thoughts about things, unfortunately as culture evolved, one of those abstracts was religion, that even inhibited thoughts, that abstract thought,…religious ones, currupted free thinking, the other deep thing greater than us…nature. if “god” wanted us to beleive in these religions, he shouldnt have given us the power to think, or to question. Thats what the catholics want now, dont judge or question anything we say, just beleive it blindly. Or for us athiests, or those who use reason and knowledge, we can “burn in hell”, as we enjoy the freedom of our thoughts,the right, and the priveledge to think.
peace out, corbs
I was wondering, in a pic u did on christianity you know that it isnt a religion right? A religion is man trying to reach god while Christianity is God trying to reach man through Jesus Christ. I get really pissed off when I see people try to clump religions together and when they put Christianity in there. All I want to know is why? Why do you insult Christians and Im a Christian and I am only 14 thats a HUGE insult to me. I really dont appreciate it.
Also there are serious problems with atheism, why do you people mock Christians saying that they have problems when you have your own and your too busy mocking a religion saying that we are wrong and Im not saying you are wrong I am simply wondering why this childish thing goes on? Why cant people stop mocking and start debating?
p.s.-that pic up there I’d look at it again. OH and you know whats freckin funny….the pic that is disagreeing with you guys is sooo small and unreadable and the thing on religion is all blown up. You guys are hailarous!!!!
Well ryan, i beleive we athiests are tired of the christians and other religions, because we see people’s thoughts being confined through them, we like to exersize free thinking and reason while christians don’t
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God.
It looks like I have been mussing out on a lot of fun here. Many of the points raised have been thrashed out in other threads so I don’t want to rehash them. There are a few interesting points.
Atheist says (about life on this planet): “It’s not chance, it’s evolutionary science… ” This is new to me. Surely for an atheist, evolutionary science does happen by chance. If not what (or who) makes it happen?
Exatheist I agree with Atheist that you will not find the answers to any of the questions you raise in the Bible, at least the proximate answers, ie the most immediate ones. It is these that science seeks to discover, and can be done by an atheist as well as a theist since the question of God does not make a difference. God is certainly the ultimate cause of everything, and that is spelled out in the Bible (and in common sense). In other words if you are looking for the ultimate causes, you need to step outside science and look to philosophy and religion.
Atheist rightly takes you to task for your questions, but then comes up with some rather silly ones that he thinks science freed us religious nutters from. The 3000 year old idea was the most scientific answer until relatively recently. It was flawed. That’s not unusual for a scientific theory because of its method, where new difficulties to a theory contribute to greater knowledge when they are resolved. But the “flat earth” thing is a hoax – no ancient cosmology presents the earth in that way. The fear that Columbus’s crew had, was not that they would fall off the edge of the earth, but by calculating the distance to the Far East going West, they realised that if there was no intervening land, they would run out of provisions before they got there. Also the question still remains about there being no reproducible evidence of evolution… if evolution means the change from one species to another. Noone has adequately explained this. Most of us are quite content that all the weird and wonderful varieties of dog all have common ancestry: that was not new with Darwin – variation within species has, of course, been known about for millenia.
Now to Atheists point: science advances “at a staggering rate” while the Bible “is a static work” (he adds rather nastily: “of fiction” which I will ignore). This need not concern us. The ultimate things and causes of things don’t change. Our knowledge about things around us and their immediate causes does change, because we are just a tiny speck in a huge universe full of incredible things we probably have no idea about, so of course science will change as these gradually become known just a teeny weeny bit better.
REB Jonathan Baker is my real name. I have no need to hide my indentity. I have no idea who “Johnson” or “Greenville” even are… should I?
I agree that debate can and should take place in charity, without name calling. Tempers sometimes flare, especially when people are insecure with their own arguments! The silly little signs are catchy because they’re short, and conceal important points that are discussible: the atheist needs to explain how something can come from nothing (I’m waiting). Atheist’s banner is rather more silly because it talks about invisible men who noone believes in. Nor does anyone say that God created out of boredom. The points that probably are up for debate in it are: 1) why would a creator create people just to torture them for all eternity; and 2) the Bible seems pretty human in many ways and is up for interpretation. Can we really take it to be the work of an infinite intelligence?
Morg. These are much better arguments. When stripped of the rhetoric, it boils down to this:
1) how can an infinitely good God create an evil creature (= bad angel = devil)? – he can’t be all that good after all
2) why can’t God get rid of this creature? – clearly his power is severely limited
3) that same angel does things God doesn’t see – so is he really all-knowing?
4) God kills/torments those who don’t like his book or obey it – doesn’t sound hugely loving.
Pretty good, if you believe that God is all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good as we Christians do. There’s no space here to answer them in detail. But here’s a start. As usual, I can’t wait for a response! As you will see it all comes down to the question of freedom.
1) God created a good creature that was free. Freedom means not being forced to only do what God wants you do. Hence any free creature (including us) can disobey God and God allows this, even though obviously he would prefer that we chose our freedom to do good.
2) God could get rid of the devil. But to annihilate any creature that did not do what you wanted it to do is really the same thing again… only apparent and not real freedom. God takes freedom much more seriously than we do!
3) I think that this is factually false. The Devil can not do anything that is unknown to God.
4) Again this is not correct. Hell is living in the absence of God. We believe that this is not very pleasant if you are created to live with him forever – it’s like a fish somehow surviving out of water. So, once again, it has to do with freedom. If you really don’t want to live with God forever, you can make that choice.
Ryan, I kind of agree with you, except I would put it the other way. I would say that Christianity is the true religion that the other genuine ‘religions’ are really ultimately seeking it. However, when in dialogue with atheists who don’t see why our religion should get any advantage over any other, it is necessary to be humble and accept the truths that there is in them (ie that we share) while also being able to point out and defend differences.
Joe (Atheist). You describe religion as an unfortunate by-product of abstract thought. It is also a natural one. To argue that it “currupted (sic) free thinking” or “inhibited thoughts” requires explanation. On the contary, it was precisely because we started to question, that we realised that the world is full not only of things but of meanings. Things are intellectual – they have a rationality about them. Behind this there must be an intelligence to make them so.
You then attack Ryan saying “we athiests (sic) are tired of the christians and other religions, because we see people’s thoughts being confined through them, we like to exersize free thinking and reason while christians don’t.” I’m pretty ready to think about anything you like… go for it – give me your worst! Are you ready to listen my thoughts, though? Or does free thinking not extend that far?
Epicurus. A classic restatement of the traditional debate that every student of the philosophy of religion faces – thank you. I think if you look carefully, it boils down to the same questions that Morg raises… let me know if you disagree.
@joe(athiest)- i have done my own research right? cus im a firm beleiver in the fact that believing something and not knowing why you believe it is stupid. and i just can’t believe that something just came from nothing one day. like sure use all the scientific terms you want to make it sound more plausible but think about it logically! things don’t just come into being out of nowhere. like if a friggin car just **KABOOM** appeared right in front of you. logically would you be like “oh its no big deal. happens all the time, thats what happened with the universe”. personally id be like “WTF!!!! WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT!!! HOLY CRAP” cus lets be serious here. this whole idea of a universe just exploding out of nothing without a cause is a fairy tale in itself, only with a lot of scientific terms. And im also a firm believer that god gave us free thought so that we arent robots who blindly follow him. he wants us to choose him using our logic. and i, as a christian, support free thinking as well.
Under(/)ath – You’re making a classic mistake. No one, except for theists, believe that the complex universe we currently inhabit (and are part of ourselves) suddenly exploded out of nothing. Rather, minute changes took place over massive periods of time. It may be difficult to comprehend changes that happen over billions of years when your holy book only suggests that the universe is a few thousand years old, but it’s a concept that’s important to understand. The creation of matter from energy (read up on Higgs Boson) was the start of the chain, and was followed by tiny changes that, over the course of billions of years, combine to make a big difference. We have scientifically solid explanations for these various tiny changes, from the start (The Higgs Boson particle and the formation of matter and time) through to Darwin and evolution (and natural selection). So yes, if a car suddenly appeared out of nowhere in front of me, yes I’d be startled. But if i saw the constituent parts of the car being manufactured and then assembled, I would not be. And it is the exposing of processes that science does, so we don’t have to rely on unfounded, unproved and absurd explanations (like an invisible God suddenly creating everything) for events.
beleif is the absense of thought, an unthinking brain is clinically dead, beleif is suicide, and yes christians you’re religion is about not quetioning it, i used to be a devout christian and when i was old enough to listen to what the preist was saying, and the religion classes, they all at one point or another stated that merely questioning the religion, god, christ’s divinity, was wrong, now how strong of a religion can it be if its afraid to let people question, to think for themselves, i think thats pretty weak. So i did question it, i found it was bullshit. people seem to feel comfortable questioning science so i feel comfortable questioning that people can walk on water, raise the dead, im sorry ill take science over magic any day.
peoples next defense for religion is that it makes people better people, first i know this to be untrue, the only thing religion does is make people constrain their thoughts, and be closed minded, and it has nothing to do with morality because i there are immoral christians, athists, moral athiests/cristians, so that is bull as well, and if you need a religion to make you a better person then i honestly feel bad for you
UnderOATH,
Then why believe, all of a sudden, BAM! and then god existed. Thats just as stupid as kaboom! the universe appears.
and God can’t be eternal, because then the universe could’ve been eternal as well.
or something.
@Epicurus
everything that begins to exist has to have a cause that brought it into existence. god didn’t begin to exist. therefore he doesnt need a cause or a “kaboom”. and i don’t see how god not having a beginning point would effect the age of the universe….. perhaps you could enlighten me. and like i have said before- what if there was an entity (we’ll call it God) that had a 3 dimensional awareness of time, like we have a 3 dimensional awareness of space? or was aware of all or MORE of the 12-13 dimensions to reality proposed by string theorists? wouldn’t he find this all this talk of “THERE COULDNT POSSIBLY BE AN ENTITY THAT CREATED THIS UNIVERSE” and our pathetic attempts at trying to act so smart that we can make these claims….. wouldnt he find this whole debate somewhat naive….. elementary…. silly haha
@joe(athiest)
re]
priests>> therefore im assuming you were a devout catholic. i am not. i follow the pentecostal church, yet i think for myself. i am not a copy of their belief system, as there are things i disagree with them on. nevertheless, i am christian and i am free thinking enough to choose to be a christian. i find questioning a helpful tool for developing a deeper understanding. and what you call “magic” we call god excersizing his power over his creation.
well i was never devout, that was a bit exagerated, what i meant was i used to beleive in this bullshit. Dude what the fuck is wrong with you underoath, some religions are fine, but chritianity is a lost cause in my book, its full of ignorant fools, including yourself, you guys always hyave retarted answers to logic, “its not magic, its god exercizing his power over creation” its fucking magic, jesus was a nice man who was either deluded, a liar, or a magician, ive got news for ya buddy, there is no fucking god, and its just rediculus, what i listen to in my school, how dare you question evolution, we have facts, you’re entitled to your own veiws, but not facts, facts support evolution, facts don’t support what you stand for, im sorry but theres this thing called physics, and if you look at some rules of physics you cant walk on water when its in the liquid state, it can’t happen, neither can you raise the dead, well now we can sometimes, but in his time you couldnt do anything like that, the bible, its one fucking good fairytale, a piece of fiction that at best is 100% bullshit with a few good stories, and maybe a nice message here or there, and as ive said before if you need a religion to be a good person then you are a SAD PIECE OF SHIT! chrstianities philosophy on life is flawed as well, im sorry but christianity puts a low estimation on earthly life and thinks that everyone should be goody tootooos to eachother, HUMAN NATURE SAYS OTHERWISE, it is hardwired in outr brain to fuck people up that we don’t like, to kill, to steal, inside us all is an inner animal, that in our society, is choked, supressed, renounced, denied, and depressed, violence is part of us, we would be much happier to not submit, but empower ourselves by embracing our desires, for sex, for survival, for killing, whatever it may be, life is a jail cell with laws, iron bars are metaphoically speaking, inescapable, and if you have a religion, you are closing that box even tighter, that inner animal is strangling faster, as time moves on, death is enclosing on you, and you will find that as you lie in your death bed, praying to your fake god, you will realize all your life has ammounted up to nothing, you will once again be aware of a distant voice, that is your inner animal, the one you allowed to be strangled, and your ignorance is repaid…..with guilt.
@joe
in reply to -”ive got news for ya buddy, there is no fucking god, and its just rediculus”
there’s the influence of an already assumed pretense. its impossible to have a rational debate about the possibility of a god if you start out by saying “there is no god and that is fact”. im sorry but you have to leave the door open for an actual intellectual discussion. and um…. are you a naturalist? do you believe all we are is our minds and we need to do what we want to do because of “the beast inside us”? just wondering. oh yes. and you forgot to mention the possibility that maybe jesus was a good guy AND he was RIGHT. thats an option too eh?
but back to the original point. of course when you start out saying the supernatural is non-existant, walking on water is a fairy tale. but as soon as you yourself open your own mind and say the supernatural to be a MAYBE, then all of a sudden walking on water isn’t so much a fairy tale as it is an effect of the supernatural.
STOP CALLING US CLOSED MINDED AND TRY OPENING YOUR OWN.
@atheist
weren’t the minor gradual changes in relation the the development of our planet and species that inhabited it? something huge happened within the first second…. iv been told….. temperature changes? like something ridiculous like billions of degrees….. and it expanded from… nothing… to an orange size really fast…. then it wasnt exactly tiny changes after that… it just expanded like…. crazy…. personally (lets not use a car any more) id be kinda freaked out if an orange suddenly appeared, and it even changed the temperature around at all. like imagine you lived in canada in the winter and an orange appears and all the snow melts. and then it grows like exponentially…… and keeps growing….. kinda weird to say the least. you’d at least look for a cause. wouldnt you?
At one stage I thought Atheist blocked abusive language… it is sad to see supposedly mature adults swearing at each other in place of reasoned debate. I would like to suggest some moderation here between underoath and joe who should probably be made to live with each other for a week as their punishment. Even without the abuse, some comments deserve to be unanswered: eg (joe atheist) “beleif (sic) is the absense of thought, an unthinking brain is clinically dead, beleif is suicide, and yes christians you’re religion is about not quetioning it…”
The only point, therefore, I would like to take up is the Atheist’s regarding Underoath’s “classic mistake.”
To quote: “No one, except for theists, believe that the complex universe we currently inhabit (and are part of ourselves) suddenly exploded out of nothing.” I think that’s a bit strong. I think if you asked any thinking person in the street who had not encountered this debate, they would instantly say: “well it had to come from somewhere” and they would be right.
So the alternative explanation from Atheist? “…minute changes took place over massive periods of time.” Actually it’s not difficult at all to comprehend changes over billiions of years, but even minute changes must be from something to something else, not nothing to something. There is already the assumption that there was something to minutely change.
Nor is the theory of “the creation of matter from energy” sufficient. I quite happily concede that if Einstein was right, then matter and energy are readily interchangeable. But once again the real question becomes: “so where did the energy come from?”
I disagree, therefore, with Atheist, that time is the only difference between being startled or not by the production of a car. Rather, the absolutely crucial difference is a car manufacturer: some intelligent being that made the car. Surely we would all be surprised if we discovered that on some island in the middle of nowhere, steering wheels were being produced by an unintelligent process for no apparent reason (that appears to have started with the spokes and gradually joined up around the outside). I really don’t think anyone would find it intelligent to say: “oh well, we just need to wait another billion years and we’ll probably have a car.” The problem is that the steering wheel already needs explaining. Science is based on causality. When you see an effect you know there must be a cause, and science goes about discovering it. So then why steering wheels? It makes no sense to say: “well, because this is just a random process that may eventually lead to the car.”
Thus God is not such an absurd explanation for a meaningful world of causality. It sure beats “minute changes of energy that just are for no reason.” Or maybe I have misunderstood the Atheist?
im not an adult, im 15
jesus, good guy yes, but its not possible to do the things he did, and so he either was deluded, or deceived a mass amount of people, there really isn’t a possibility for a god, and im not closed minded, iv’e listend to all of it, from every christian, catholic, religious follower, and i heard them, i considered what they’ve said, im done with it, its all bullshit, few other words describe that. i have to go, peace out
@joe-
“there really isn’t a possibility for a god”
i thought on this thread, we are discussing the possible need for a god in the equation of the universe? i dont think anyone can accurately tell you for sure 100% there is no god (because you cant exactly check and see for yourself.)
@jonathan baker
………. that was well said. i even laughed out loud for one part. i probably look like an idiot at school laughing at the computer screen……
tool is all you need in life
Choices always were a problem for you
What you need is someone strong to guide you
Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow
What you need is someone strong to guide you…
Like me
Like me
Like me
Like me
If you want to get your soul to heaven
Trust in me, now don’t you judge or question
You are broken now, but faith can heal you
Just do everything i tell you to do
Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow
What you need is someone strong to guide you
Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow
Let me lay my holy hand a, hand upon you
My god’s will
Becomes me
When he speaks
He speaks through me
He has needs
Like i do
We both want
To rape you
Jesus christ, why don’t you come save my life, now
Open my eyes, blind me with your light, now
Jesus christ, why don’t you come save my life, now
Open my eyes, blind me with your lies, now
If you want to get your soul to heaven
Trust in me, now don’t you judge or question
You are broken now, but faith can heal you
Just do everything i tell you to do
Jesus christ, why don’t you come save my life, now
Open my eyes, blind me with your light, now
Jesus christ, why don’t you come save my life, now
Open my eyes, blind me with your lies, now
Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow
Let me lay my holy hand a, hand upon you
My god’s will
Becomes me
When he speaks
He speaks through me
He has needs
Like i do
We both want
To rape you!
[long pause]
I had a friend once,
he took some acid,
now he thinks he’s a fire engine
It’s ok,
untill he pisses on your lighter,
kinda smells,
kinda cool,
kinda funny anyway
satan.
satan.
satan.
satan.
satan.
I had a friend once,
he took some extacy,
tried to marry me,
and everyone in the room.
He was sorta loving,
kinda caring,
kinda tried to fuck my lazy boy.
It got a bit messy,
all over the curtains,
armchair covers,
throw pillows,
and carpets.
getting bored,
I’m getting bored,
getting bored,
I’m getting bored,
getting bored,
I’m getting bored,
getting bored,
I’m getting bored!
there we go underoath/beleivers in retarted shit
argument over
Um… you can’t call christianity retarded because you wrote something retarded. or did you write that? Were you talking about tool as in the band? Because if so, their lyrics have never been considered scientific fact, or holy writings of christianity. just wanted to clarify. relient k wrote a song about marylin manson eating a girl. maybe we should start basing rational conclusions on those lyrics too.
He sewed his eyes shut because he is afraid to see
He tries to tell me what I put inside of me
Hes got the answers to ease my curiosity
He dreamed up a God and called it christianity
Your God is dead and no one cares
If there is a hell I will see you there
He flexed his muscles to keep his flock of sheep in line
He made a virus that would kill off all the swine
His perfect kingdom of killing, suffering and pain
Demands devotion atrocities done in his name
Your God is dead and no one cares
Drowning in his own hypocrisy
And if there is a hell I will see you there
Burning with your God in humility
Will you die for this?
@ Underoath,
Yes, it’s opiate by Tool. Sure, they’re not a scientific fact, but the song does describe organized religion.
first point of view from this song is about, the pope or someone, who says the people need someone to guide them. He says they will be alright if they believe in God.
Then he says God speaks through him. Which isn’t ofcourse. He just wants all the people to believe in HIM, he wants power.
We both want
To rape you! they/he just wants to rape the minds of people.
Second POV is probably from maynard: Jesus Christ why don’t you come save my life now, open my eyes, light me with your light now.
He thinks what the first guy said is bullshit, and the wants to see to believe. where is this so called jesus ? nowhere. so why believe in him?
Blind me with your light now*
which might mean that believing in it, will make him blind to see the real truth.
omg that was really disturbing epicurus, I literally feel sick!!! what is wrong with you? Do you think saying poems and this kind of crap makes you think you win???? I am really disturbed and I would like to know what in the world were you thinking???? Seriously you are a dark person, who must have had a sad life or you must have been…..in a satanic cult because atheists think that there isnt a god at all, and you are saying God is burning in hell and I will see Him there??? Do you know Im only 14 Ill take that as a threat you need to watch what you say or you could get in serious trouble (i have no problem reporting it to the authorities) so if you want to debate about thesim vs Chrisianity like an adult you can email me, but if you want to keep emailing me those disturbing songs Ill consider them a threat and you could get in serious trouble.
WATCH WHAT YOU SAY TO KIDS!!!!
Underoath – Of course, everything is relevant. And I was under the impression it was the concept of emerging complexity you were struggling with, as opposed to the rapid appearance of matter. Matter, strangely enough, can expand and contract very very quickly. It is the complexity that takes time.
The two options discussed between you and I are: -
Now personally, I know which idea I favor. It’s the one which explains, scientifically, the conditions we currently find ourselves in. Not the one which is rooted in pre-scientific understanding and ancient culture and has had many aspects convincingly disproved.
Jonathan – Unfortunately, i don’t have the time to moderate every comment left on the site, especially on older posts such as this one. I am entirely reliant on contributors remaining civil and respectful. If I spot any blatant and unfair violations, I do tend to step in, as much as it pains me to do so (I’m pro free speech).
Ryan at 14 you should have the basic reading comprehension skill to realize the only one making threats is yourself. I am aware that religion suppresses the anterior cingulate cortex portion of the brain causing error recognition problems and reactive jumping to conclusions. This leads to using the reptilian part of the brain that sees uncertainty or conflicting opinions and differences among other things as a threat.
Apparently you were to busy being offended to actually understand Epicurus’s point.
Underoath, ok, that song isnt accepted as fact, no, of course not, underoathm, why do you always have to walk around being a gay little bitch? that song clearly explaines christianity, sure its only a veiw point, but it is more than that, its a right veiwpoint, something that im sure youve only heard out of other peoples mouths, ahahhahahahhah
haha, its right, i posted tool, so the argument is over lol
i guess not really but it should end it, tool, thats it, its done, need we say more, or do you want me to go through line through line, and explain it to you, im sorry but i have a social life and i need to chill with some of my freinds, oh, freinds are people that you form connections with over time, and have a good time with, a good time is when you are doing something that you enjoy, enjoyment is against christianity so i guess it doesnt matter lol.
@joe
mychildren mybride- if seeing is believing, then they’ve gouged out all their own eyes, theyre confused by the love the hate, all of the hypocritical lies, their own misfortunes creating the selfish disguise that will seed the beginning of their spiritual demise.
if you consider tool “the right opinion” then i consider mychildren mybride to be the “right opinion”. does it make you happy knowing that this debate is officially irrational and will never go anywhere?
@ epicurus- of course i am still a christian, and iv tried to hold out saying what im sure every christian has already said to you. im in the awkward position of being totally convinced about the existence of “god” or “jesus” because of feelings and emotions that i claim you will never know until you feel them for yourself, and you claim are just BS. But however, how many christians are there in the world? and lets be conservative and say that half dont have these feelings. then are the other half (half billion? im not sure how many there are now) all crazy? there are some things science can’t explain.
@ atheist
whether or not god is needed in the equation for the universe still doesn’t prove or disprove his existence right? of course “god” would provide an explanation for why someday a universe was just born right? again, i could talk to you about feelings and nudges all day. in the end it comes down to the question-
is this all there is? or is there more than what we can physically document?