I know its a little hard to keep an open mind when talking to them, but be patient and they’ll see the logic

Their quick retreat seems like the usual dishonest face save tactic from those who can do no more than argue by unproven assertion from a basis of factual ignorance.

Let us continue to allow our moral beliefs and behavior to be guided by what is currently scientifically supported, and not by the self-elevating proclamations of those who refuse to allow facts to interfere with the selfish demonstration of their ability to wield immense social power over others.

Jesus had absolutely nothing to say about homosexuality. It is you who believe it to be sinful; it was not something that he thought worth mentioning.

As I showed you, your beliefs are contrary to the actual facts backed up by valid evidence.

Now that you know the real truth, you cannot honestly continue to socially torture homosexuals by pretending that they have deliberately chosen a sinful lifestyle. That would you deliberately immoral.

You can no longer claim to be ignorant; you can only choose to ignore the truth because it does not suit your indoctrinated religious beliefs or the beliefs that make you feel comfortable in your chosen social group. That is intellectual dishonesty.

Does that give anyone here a reason to respect your opinions or the religious beliefs that inform them? I think not. You have shown that people who hold such beliefs are bigots who will reject any facts that take away their ability to blame, belittle, condescend to and socially and mentally harm those that nature has modified away from the average.

Remember that several centuries ago Christians would have treated you in the same manner for being left-handed. Back then it was considered to be a sign that someone was possessed by the devil. You would have been punished out of “loving kindness” for your wickedness in maintaining this evil habit. The reasoning of Christians of that era is really no different, and no less disgraceful, than the reasoning you are using to justify treating those who have been born with same gender sexual orientations like the scum of the earth.

In another few centuries people like you will be condemned for their vicious immorality, just like those who punished left-handers out of “christian love” several centuries ago, and like the Christians who supported slavery in the not so distant past.

I am tired of the constant debate between us. We are both strong in what we believe (whether it is theism or atheism) and the debate can go on forever. Each one of us is too hard headed to understand the others point and so we are sooner or later going to start attacking each other. I have said what I’ve wanted to say and I am going to leave it exactly at that.

If you have points against me then go and read my other comments on this blog, but dont expect a reply..

Goodbye! Hope you have a good life.

PS. It seems we spend to much time in front of our computers. Lets go outside, breath in the fresh air and live life with or without God (your choice).

God Bless

You are equating homosexuals with “the scum of the earth”. And you think that labelling them like this makes you “loving” provided that you are prepared to “hang out” with them.

Jesus of Nazareth was an illiterate carpenter who hung out with illiterate fisherman whom he had persuaded to abandon their families and their responsibilities to them. He had only brief contact with people who you consider to be “scum”. OTOH, the people whom he considered to be scum were the religious leaders of his day and the rich people. I suspect that you would disagree with that assessment when it is related to your own community.

It is NOT in dispute that homosexuals have brains that are wired differently from birth. (BTW, they are wired differently from both the average male and the average female.)

The last line should be:

Good luck with that.
(That is, trying to persuade Christians of your particular brand to educate themselves and overcome their unfounded prejudices towards those who are sexually orientated towards their own gender. I actually doubt that you will have much luck as the real scientific facts undermine a religious point of view that believes every part of the biblical record is equally divinely inspired and equally relevant to modern society. You will have to “reinterpret” a lot of Old Testament scripture to make your god look like a good guy instead of a poorly educated homophobe.)

I don’t suppose it has occurred to you that you are judging homosexuals, and judging them negatively, whenever you insist that they have a choice about how they react sexually to others.

When you do this you are not expressing “loving” behavior towards them at all. What you express is prejudice, condescension and social cruelty born of ignorance. If you want to express true love, then educate yourself about the real facts rather than blindly and uncritically accept whatever your equally misinformed religious “experts” tell you to believe.

You have been misinformed by your religious leaders who have vested interests in pretending that homosexuality is “unnatural”. They choose to believe this because it gives them moral permission to blame homosexuals for their orientation and absolves their version of god from unjust discrimination.

Contrary to these preferred beliefs, there is ample scientific evidence that homosexuality is a normal sexual variation and that it confers some benefit on the reproductive and parenting abilities of heterosexuals. Modern studies provide support for the conclusions that homosexuality is innate, detectable very early in life, resistant to change and beneficial to heterosexuals and to societies which permit its expression.

Homosexual and bisexual behavior are widespread in the animal kingdom. Homosexual behavior has been observed in close to 1500 species, ranging from primates to gut worms, and is well documented for 500 of them. In domesticated sheep about 10% of the males refuse to mate with female sheep but readily and exclusively mate with male sheep. Japanese scientists demonstrated the genetic basis of this behavior when they discovered how a particular gene in the fruit fly is switched on, causing a change in the sexual orientation of the fly.

Zietsch and colleagues (2008 & 2009) concluded that there is considerable evidence that human sexual orientation is genetically influenced. While the genes that cause homosexuality in humans mean that the resulting individual is less likely to reproduce, they have advantages for the heterosexuals who carry them. They found evidence that women who produce homosexual men are more fertile than usual.

According to the scientists, both left-handers and homosexuals have brains that are wired differently from birth. There is hard evidence of this. It is in dispute.

Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab (2010) discovered that gender identity and sexual orientation are programed into the brain structures while the developing baby is still in the womb. If the mother’s womb secretes testosterone at a critical point the developing nerve cells will orientate in the male direction; if this hormone is absent at this time, the fetal brain structures will develop in the female direction. The authors state that there is no indication that social environment after birth has any significant effect on gender identity or sexual orientation.

The Royal College of Psychiatrists stated in 2007:
“Despite almost a century of psychoanalytic and psychological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heterosexual or homosexual orientation. It would appear that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment. Sexual orientation is therefore not a choice.”

Peer reviewers have noted that the conclusion reached by scientists who have investigated the origins and stability of sexual orientation is that it is a human characteristic that is formed early in life, and is resistant to change.

Statements such as this have been made by most of the reputable researchers in this area and by every major professional body of mental health providers.

Nevertheless, religiously motivated associations, such as the National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) insist on providing “therapy” that is claimed to change the orientation of homosexuals to heterosexual. They market their approach by providing anecdotal pen pictures of clients who they state have successfully changed their sexual orientation and are now leading happy and fulfilling lives. Anecdotal evidence is not accepted as valid evidence by either scientists or courts of law. You should not accept it as valid either. It is aimed to appeal to the emotions, not the intellect.

More reliable evidence supports the conclusion that sexual reorientation programs rarely work as stated and that most of its victims end up with serious mental health problems that they are forced to deny and disguise out of fear of losing their social support network. A significant number end up in doctor’s offices with serious depressive disorders or, worse, commit suicide.

No major mental health professional organization has endorsed efforts to change sexual orientation and virtually all of them have adopted policy statements cautioning the profession and the public about treatments that purport to change sexual orientation.

Both the American Psychological Association and the Royal College of Psychiatrists expressed concerns that the positions espoused by NARTH are not supported by the science and create an environment in which prejudice and discrimination can flourish.

You are, of course, free to believe the misinformation put about by your religious group but you must now do so in the light of the knowledge that it is not supported by reputable science or by any internationally respected professional body of people working to improve the mental health and well-being of all human beings.

You should also be aware that there are many people who also identify themselves as “Followers of Jesus” who accept the scientific version of this topic: that homosexual orientation is rarely, if ever, a choice and that forcing people with this orientation to remain celibate is cruel and contrary to the social health and acceptable moral stance of the community as a whole.

If you wish to follow the highest moral path then you should consider changing your ignorance-based viewpoint to one that conforms to the evidence. If you want to be extremely moral then you could try persuading your religious friends to do the same. Good luck this that!

I believe in love. And I believe that ultimately, God is love. And I am sure you can agree that every atheist and theist should show love, even to the scum of society, just like Jesus did. If you don’t want to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He came to save the world then that is your choice, but you would be a fool not to think that the example he lead as a person of love for his enemies and his friends (all people around him)was amazing and is something we all should be.