This is something I’ve been pondering for a while after I saw a comment on another website implying that Christians were better than non Christians because of charity work, such as operation shoe box, that Christians participate in and run. I’ll concentrate on Christians in this post because it was a comment from a Christian that sparked off my train of thought, but the same principals can be applied to any religion.
After reading that comment, I started thinking about the motivations of Christians to participate in such activities, and I came to two conclusions, both of which are worryingly self-serving. So let’s take a look at them.
Conversion
You’ll notice that any charitable organisation that is affiliated with a religion makes it very obvious that such a link exists. Take the Christian Missionaries for example, they promised technology, food and social advancement to the people indiginous to the areas they visited. In return, the people would have to become Christian. It was a simple premise that exploited the most vulnerable people in the world under the guise of charity. What they were really doing was exploitation. We’ll give you X if you convert to our religion. I’ve spoken about the need for the church to maintain its numbers in the past, so sending workers out to relatively unknown areas of the world in order to “plant” churches seems like a sensible, if not moral, way to do this.
While modern Christian charitable organisations aren’t so overt, they still have alterior motives. Christian Aid, for example, makes sure that everyone they help knows that they have been helped by a Christian organisation. In fact, I was asked for a donation by a friend who was collecting for Christian Aid. I pointed out that while I do donate to charity, I am very careful not to donate to any charity with a strong religious affiliate, because of the reasons detailed above.
Prizes
I think we all know what the prize on offer is, an eternity in the best (but most boring) place not-on-earth, heaven. What people seem to forget is that all Christians have been incentivised to follow other Christians. And if they believe in God, they also believe in heaven (and hell), so the incentive, as far as they’re concerned, is a good one.
So when a Christian does a good act, you have to remember that it is never selfless. At the end of the day, each and every Christian is thinking to themselves “one more point I can make to get into heaven”. If they can help someone and get them to convert to Christianity, well just imagine how many points that would be!
Conclusion
So based on the two points above, it’s very difficult to accept that a Christian would do a good deed for the sake of doing a good deed. And whilst I’m sure many Christians will argue the fact that they have been incentivised, they can’t argue about its existence (in their mind). And once an incentive exists, it’s very difficult to ignore.
On the face of it, it would appear that Atheists acting on bahalf of charities are in a far better position to help. Otherwise, it’s like letting a car salesman fix your alternator. You know you’re going to get sold to, and you know he’s looking to get some reward in the end.
What are your thoughts? Can there be a truly good Christian?
This very idea came to me some two weeks ago. I was thinking about some of the things Christians say about atheists and my brain suddenly and without warning kicked me in the head. A Christian may well exercise caution while in the presence of an atheist since we are clearly immoral and, heaven forbid, may actually say something that causes doubt to arise in the mind of the Christian. But I would say that any pretense of friendship by a Christian toward an atheist or a prospective soul to save is suspect. In the Christian mind all who haven’t “Got Jesus” are, or must be, atheist and a soul in need of saving. This would be the ulterior motive.
I have read somewhere, I cannot remember where, that in all probability many who do good deeds seemingly because of religion would no doubt do those good deeds even if there were no religion. There are good Christians simply because they are good people to start with. But, it must be tempered with the idea that there are not any good Islamic suicide bombers, while there are many good people in the Islamic faith. Just as there are not any good Christians who murder Doctors for performing abortions.
Finally, it is all in your perspective. An Islamic religious leader, I think they are called Imams, would disagree that there are no good Islamic suicide bombers and there are probably many Christians who would disagree that there are no good Christian murderers of Doctors who perform abortions.
There’s something that I’d like to point out to you with regards to the representation that you gave of Christians here. Just a pointer so you don’t create a straw man… Christians do not regard charity (or any other type of good deed) as a way of collecting points to get into heaven. Nothing can be further from what the Bible teaches, and even if I don’t expect you to follow what the Bible teaches yourself, you should understand / interpret Christian actions in that light.
Far from teaching that one can (or should) gain salvation through adherence to a certain set of rules or through collecting “good boy†points, the Bible does teach that nobody can be saved on the basis of good works – which is precisely the reason why Jesus had to obtain that righteousness on the behalf of the human race.
To answer your question then: Can a religious person be really good? Well – everybody can do good things. There’s no doubt about that. (Of course that does lead the atheist down the rabbit hole of “what is good?â€, or “who says?â€)
The Christian has a coherent answer to this: Humans were endowed by God with the free choice to either do good or not to. Neither option makes you into a good person or a bad person. What makes you good in the Christian worldview is that you were created in the image of God – and so whether or not you actually do good things, you have innate / inherent value because of that image. Goodness does not equate to salvation, just as badness does not equate to damnation.
This may not be a convincing argument to you, but you should at least take care to represent the Christian religious viewpoint correctly if you are going to make a point from it…
Empie,
You are very close in describing the Christian viewpoint. Yes, salvation cannot be earned by good deeds, and so the hope of salvation is not why a Christian would do them. But we view man as inherently _precious_ because he bears the image of God, NOT inherently good. In fact, we view the natural tendancy of man as inherently evil; man has a natural bias against God ever since the fall.
So what does motivate us to do missions? Several things. First, we see the atheist and other non-believers as deceived by the world (Satan’s lies) as to be held captive to their sins; ultimately condemned to an eternity in hell. Just as we would hold a man back from stepping off a curb, if we could, in front of an on-coming bus, trying to redeem the captive from hell is an act of compassion. Second, it was what Jesus commanded us to do, and to obey his Great Commandment honors Him. Third, even though place in heaven is not affected by our works, Jesus did teach about “rewards in heaven” for bearing fruit for Him. Is it “selfish” (and thus implied to be sinful) to desire the rewards that God has promised? No. Since by definition God cannot tempt us into sin, this is the one form of self-serving motiviation that is blessed by God.
So have these motiviations produced good or evil in the world? When you consider that almost every hospital system was started by Christians, almost all of the first Universities, the public education system, and the American “great experiment” of a government “of the people, by the people, and for the people”, there can be little doubt that great good has come of this.
Rick
I tink we are on the same page brother! Its good to see that I’m not the only Christian out here who’s willing to engange!
Fact is, as we both mention, that far from being “not Great”, (ala Christopher Hitchens) God is continuously demonstrating his greatness in the way that he sustains everyting, and even through the good he causes out of the evil we have introduced into the world.
Keep up being a good ambassador – it’s even needed here in Africa where I’m from…
I have no monopoly on the truth…
However, in response to the topic, I believe that a “religious person” (I’m going to interpret that as a Christian rather than religious person) can be good.
They can’t be good through charitable deeds or niceties. They are made good through faith and forgiveness alone.
Does this make Christians any more ‘good’ than other people? Definitely not!
The bible says “What shall we conclude then? Are we Christians any better than the others? Not at all!” (Romans 3:9)
I like this website a lot, and I like what The Athiest and also what Rick have to say. 🙂
Matthew 6:1 – 4 tells the Christian how to do this form of good, and expressly prohibits him from trying to make points in the process. Hence, my response to “one more point I can make to get into heaven†is that the writer doesn’t know his subject well. A Christian who practices what he believes is prohibited from this very thing. Hence, a professing Christian trying to make points is not a practicing Christian and the postulate fails by definition. (For that definition I site Matthew 7:16 which says that you can tell if they are a Christian by what they do.)
I think Pemberton is right here. As far as I am familiar with Christianity’s doctine, going around helping/converting others is not what gets one into heaven.
Who said Christians are good in the first place? Sure, Christianity is supposed to be a walk in the right direction, but it’s not a magic label. I’ve known lots of Christians who made bad decisions; even ones who disagreed with other Christians on basic ideology. I believe that both evil and good exist, and there is no overlap. However, the Bible says “all fall short of the glory of God” and “all our righteousness are like filthy rags” and “there is no one who does good, not even one.” So? I guess Christians aren’t really that much better than the average Joe Shmo, even according to the Bible. So what’s the difference? The difference is that Christians have accepted forgiveness from God, which he freely offers, and they admit that they’re not perfect and need his salvation. As to the original topic, I can’t entirely agree. Bringing this ultimate gift of salvation is the best thing Christians can offer to other people. Sure they can give worldly, necessary goods, like food, wells and medical care. But what goes much further and lasts for an eternity, according to their belief, is salvation. If they can spread this faith, then others have a part in that eternity as well. Since the Christian is already saved and isn’t “required” to spread the gospel to anyone, how is this selfish? As to prizes in heaven, yes. We do have those to look forward to. We can see this in the parable of the talents, and in the apostle Paul’s writings. He wrote before he died “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race. I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give to me on that day. But not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.” So we have something to look forward to. After all, what would the point of Christianity be if not for receiving salvation? And why would we want salvation if it wasn’t any differet from hell? So granted, we want something. But we also have a genuine will to do what God wants- to go out and spread the gospel, and do good. So like all, we fall short of the Glory of God and are not exempt from selfishness. But the act of spreading the gospel is certainly not selfish.
Christ commands us to help those in need. None of our works or good deeds can get us to heaven. We DO all fall short of the glory of God. We are dead in our sin until God Himself quickens (makes alive) our hearts. That’s where ~born again~ comes from…(I can’t stomach that expression by the way). He changes our nature (our heart) and therefore our desire is to please Him. We do not do anything Christian’s or Atheist’s, that is contrary to our desire. Any and all of our “works” or fruits flow from our changed nature. With Christ in us we now have the ability to not sin where as before He changed our heart, we only had the ability to sin. Clearly God says He is the One at work in us. He works through us and gives us the strength to be selfless when sometimes we don’t feel like it. The still sinful nature that we retain until He glorifies us or finishes His work in us, does and will at times rear it’s ugly head. If we truly love Him, that is evidence of a Christian or a Christ follower. I am saddened by the black eye so called “Christians” or “Religious” people (I can’t stomach that expression either) have given to the church.
I think we all know what the prize on offer is, an eternity in the best (but most boring) place not-on-earth, heaven.
Why would heaven be boring? It’s surely not boring here on earth! At least my life isn’t. With the PROMISE of a new heaven and a new earth, all of nature and those in heaven will be perfected. It does not logically follow that a perfected life (everlasting) in heaven, void of any~pain~tears~fears~sadness~worry~doubt~want~need~ that we could have that “boring” emotion. It is hard to imagine perfection in our/my not yet perfected mind. Life probably in many ways will be similar to now, without any troubles!
Who cares what they believe and if they are good? If a theistic group is contributing to a worthy cause why not join them? Really, I think what you are getting at is the idea of us vs. them. Are they evil at heart? Are they other? Be a part of your community rather than holding yourself apart.
I think you fall into a trap if you accept the idea of the Church as sinister and cast their disciples in the role of “a car salesman” tasked with fixing the fetzer valve in your car. Certainly their motivations are suspect, but it’s a basic human need to want to help others in your community or to have a community where you feel like you are part of something bigger than yourself.
When it comes down to it, desperate people need help from somewhere.
Certainly, it puts a bad taste in our mouths when you know a charity organisation is using a food kitchen to proselytise their religion, or denying people a gift if they refuse to espouse their own viewpoint. But in the long run, you may be better off giving to a charity that has a religious affiliation. At least you know what their motivation may be. At least you know it isn’t a charity that will run out of steam. As Atheists we want to give something to our fellow man too. And it is the religious organisations that are set up to do this. Many so-called religious people will admit behind closed doors that they don’t really believe in God and that their church is more of a social club. So, when the choice is to give nothing or to do charity work through a religious organisation, you might just be better off working in a church soup kitchen. There are more of us serving food there than you might think!
Polly Anna,
Good points. We at least know the motivation of the majority of soup kitchens/church based charities. There mission is to feed the hungry. They also want to share the Gospel (good news) with others. Most will not be so selfish to take our donations for themselves…there are aways exceptions. Working together to help anyone who is in need is a worthy cause in spite of our different beliefs. Tolerance is not always high on the list of Atheists or Christians. We should work toward building relationships with others instead of fighting about our differences.
“Christ commands us to help those in need.”
OMG!! Good deeds and morality based on authoritarian obedience. What about empathy or doing what you know is right regardless of what you are told to do?
How do we know or determine “what is right” or what is moral/morality”…where does that standard come from?
I try to do what is “right” regardless of what I am told Like I said the fruits flow from a changed heart. Now more than ever I feel the desire to do those things which God commands of me. That doesn’t mean I can do them perfectly.
“Now more than ever I feel the desire to do those things which God commands of me.” ~ Dawn
I have heard that before.
“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.” Adolf Hitler.
“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.†Adolf Hitler.
That’s quite a jump. Wasn’t Hitler all about himself? He was doing what he thought would make himself happy, and he was focused on meeting his own twisted needs and desires. I am not by any means an expert on Hitler. I have watched several documentaries on his life and death. He died a very unhappy man. Believe it or not, Christians are taught/supposed to try to have more concern for the other person and put others before ourselves. Just think of a world where we could actually all do this? Seems like it could be utopia. The bible tells us there WILL be wars and rumors of wars until the end time. So, therefore I know it will not happen on this earth.
Hitler was working towards this same utopia that you speak of. He understood the religious concepts of “The Greater Good” and “Us and Them” and he knew “sacrifices” would have to be made for the betterment of mankind and the righteousness of the cause. Religious leaders have repeated this scenario through out history. God’s work will be done.
Matthew’s Gospel records these words of Christ: “Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. 2 “Thus, when you give alms, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. …” Twice more in the same passage we read: “they have received their reward.”
Get over it, people. It is very normal to want to help others. It is just being honest to admit to being a religious group doing it if that’s what you are. But the added motivation of wanting to serve our neighbour out of love for Christ (despite the nasty interpretations of Psy) is hardly self-serving, unless of course you want to claim all love is self-serving … but that is a totally different question.
Our “best” is not good enough. We are all filthy rags. Christ’s coming to earth was to save us…We all deserve death/punishment/judgement. But, because we have accepted/believe in Him as our Lord and Savior, we are covered by His goodness. He paid our debt, so we are free. Not innocent (we have all sinned), but declared not guilty. The thing about God that some do not understand is that He meets us exactly where we are. We do not have to “clean up” before He accepts us. Before I started to go to church and my bible studies, I felt really uncomfortable and not good enough. I realize now (through studying who God really is not who I want Him to be), He loved me anyway. He offered me a gift that I did not deserve. Love God with all your heart mind and soul, and do what you want. 🙂
Thanks for the interesting, and somewhat heated debate. Returning to the point originally raised by Polly Anna, why do I care what someone’s motives are, well I think the answer should be obvious, and Dawn helpfully responded with why I care. I care because charitable work is simply a mechanism to spread the “gospel”. It’s a method of taunting and tempting the most vulnerable in our society. “We have soup, you do not, come to our Church and accept out beliefs and you can have soup just like us”.
The charitable side of religion is actually one of the aspects I find most devious, purely because of they way the vulnerable are preyed upon and exploited. If you want to be charitable, and help those in need, why do you need to advertise that you are a religious group? Why is it “Christian Aid” and not just “Aid”? And by Jonathan’s interpretation of the Bible, are those who participate in “Christian Aid” therefore going to be punished (or at least not rewarded) for it?
The Atheist
The charitable side of religion is actually one of the aspects I find most devious, purely because of they way the vulnerable are preyed upon and exploited.
Christians want to share their point of view as well as Atheists. I would dare someone to go to a soup kitchen and be denied soup because they say “no thank you” to what might be “preached” there. What does it really matter what name AID is offered under? Who really cares? Especially if you are hungry. People are not so stupid to be brainwashed by anything and everything that is taught. We DO have some very vulnerable~poor~homeless~elderly~hardship people who are taken advantage of and mislead by Christians and Atheists alike every minute of every day. Making it better for those around us in these situations is a common goal to work toward together, whatever our beliefs may be. There really doesn’t seem to be a reasonable argument for what name “Aid” falls under?
When my mother was dying, I really didn’t care that the hospice house was funded by a Christian charitable organization. We were able to have top notch care for my mother. I would have gladly brought her to an equally top notch Atheist hospice house. I am thankful for all the people out there that are able to look outside of themselves and sacrifice to do for others. My hat is off to them. Atheist (Atheists), I think we have VERY much in common with each other…maybe even 90%?
~”We are all filthy rags. We all deserve death/punishment/judgment. He paid our debt,”~
Yes, tell people they are worthless and that they owe you a debt that you can not repay. Sounds more like an abusive husband or slave owner. A good slave will defend his/her master and the church has had a few thousand years to perfect their psychology to an art form.
What Polly Anna, the Atheist, and others have all touched on is the question of whether a TRULY selfless good deed exists. It is a depressing notion, though not a bad one. The fact is, an atheist, with no religious motivation, can give to charity, but the fact that they feel good about themself for doing so shows some sort of selfish motivation, even if it is innocuous.
As I stated, it’s not a bad thing, to have selfish motivations for doing something. It’s actually an almost universal instinct with social animals. Early humans who helped other members of the group (tribe? pack? whatever) were rewarded by reciprocation of favours and the like.
Basically, it’s in our genes to be nice to each other, but only because it makes our lives better, whether through direct, tangible rewards, such as money; or intangible emotions.
I would not agree that our genes tell us to be nice or charitable. That completely goes against the Darwinian evolution that most atheists believe in. There are truly selfless acts. Think about this example:
When a soldier jumps onto a grenade so that his fellow soldiers don’t die, how is he being selfish? Why would his genes tell him to destroy the very fragile and short life that he had so that other people could live? Wouldn’t his “selfish” genes tell him to run for cover so that he could live and procreate so that his genes survive and reproduce?
And “nice” is a very subjective term, especially in Darwinian evolutionary theory. There is no ground for something being “nice” or “not nice,” “good” or “not good.” Everything is meaningless in this theory and there are no accountability factors. In 100 years it would matter if you were a Hitler or a Mother Theresa, both end up in the same abyss of nothingness.
*in a hundred years it wouldn’t matter
You summarized the entirity of Christian mission work in the whole world by simply pointing to wikipedia. Really? Is it true that some missionaries were exploitive colonialists? Yes. However, your assessment fails to mention people like George Meuller who helped thousands of orphans in England in the 19th Century or Bill Wallace of China who gave up a career as a surgeon in the United States to do medical work in China in the early 20th century. You left out Hudson Taylor who did extensive medical work among the Chinese and embrace significant portions of Chinese culture.
Your bare assertion that all missionaries would were trading technology for souls is just that–a bare assertion.
The idea that somehow Christians are incapable of altruism is patently false. I could assert that you should never let an Atheist offer you any sort of charity because if you do, he will use it as a platform to smugly proclaim that he is good without God and you can be too.
That sword cuts both ways, friend.