I came across this excellent post over at Possum Momma (a.k.a Atheist in a MiniVan) and though it would be fun to answer the question, and provide a brief commentary on the questions, here. I’d thoroughly recommend you read the fill post, the questionnaire is from a Sixth Grade “Science” project.
Question: Do unchristians make less moral choices than Christians?
Hypothesis: The Bible is the perfect guide to life that shows us how to be moral people. Without believing in the Bible you can’t know God and he can’t guide you and give you rewards for being a good person. I think people who aren’t Christian will be less successful.
Experiment: I will interview thirty people and ask them if they are Christian. I will give them the same questions so I have a control sample. I think they are immoral if they score lower than 15.
Questions I will ask. There are 20 points available.
- Have you ever spoke the name of our Lord in vain? – Our Lord? I don’t have one, so no. Score 1! (good start, let’s keep this up).
- Have you ever killed another human being? – If I answered yes to this, I’d have bigger problems than failing this morality test. No. Score 2.
- Have you every lied? – When I was 6 I told someone God was real. It was a cruel joke. Yes. Score 2.
- Have you ever had relations before marriage? – Hasn’t everyone? My mother is one example of a relation, and I’m not married. Yes. Score 2
- Do you go to church every Sunday or once a week? – Good one. I’d rather rub salt into my eyes. No. Personally I think this should gain me a point, but that’s probably not what the author had in mind. No. Score 2.
- Do you wish you had more stuff? – I wish I had more Bibles. Oh, that’s a conundrum. Yes. Score 2.
- Do you gossip? – Why? What have you heard? Yes. Score 2.
- Do you give to charity? – Yes, so long as said charity has no religious affiliations. Yes. Score 3.
- Do you listen to rap or heavy metal music? – I definitely don’t listen to Brave Saint Saturn, if that’s what you mean. Yes. Score 3.
- Have you ever had an abortion or been pro-choice? – Well I’m a man, so that’s abortion out of it. But am I so morally decrepit that I’ll try and force my views on other people? No. So, in this twisted logic that translated to a Yes. Score 3.
- Have you ever read Harry Potter or Spiderwick Chronicles or the Golden Compass? – It’s funny that I can get a point for this even though I’ve read numerous atheist books, such as The God Delusion. No. Score 4.
- Do you see movies with unwholesome content? – I usually see movies with my Girlfriend. Yes. Score 4.
- Do you pray every day? – I prey every day, does that count? No. Score 4.
- Do you believe that God is the creator of heaven and earth? – Well I don’t believe heaven exists, and I’m sure that if some entity did create the earth they would have done a better job, Like intelligently designing people to be clever enough not to be religious, instead of relying on the intelligent amongst us to evolve to such a state. Hell no. Score 4.
- Are you overweight because you eat too much? – No I’m overweight because God is punishing me for his non-existence. No. Score 5. (I’m overweight because I don’t exercise enough!)
- Do you take pride in accomplishments other than service to God? – I don’t take pride in anything. I love apathy. No. Score 6.
- Do you put God and Jesus first? – Er, I can’t put two things first. That’s like asking someone to dedicate themselves 110% to something. Can’t be done. Sorry. No. Score 6.
- Do you view pornography? – View? or interact with? No. Score 7.
- Do you practice temperance in every thing you do? – Such as my fanatical following of a religion? No. Score 7.
- Are you quick to anger? – Not according to the judge. Actually, I take pride (damn!) in the fact that I’m very calm, logical and diabolical un-flappable. So no. Score 8.
So I got an eight. Better than I thought I would. Admittedly I had to use some pedantic interpretations of the questions, but that’s ok in my book.
In all seriousness though, this questionnaire and it’s author can’t really be criticized. It all comes down the the parents who have ingrained this belief in the child that you can only be “moral” if you are a Christian. Note that you can’t achieve the “pass mark” unless you get at least some of the Christian exclusive activities right. It’s asking a question that only has three outcomes. Either you’re a Christian and moral, or a Christian and not moral or an unmoral non-Christian. There’s no fourth option.
How did you do?
Check this out..
1. I am the Lord your God.. You shall have no other gods before me.
If you have failed to put the God who gave you life first in all things, then you have broken the first commandment.
2. You shall not make for yourself a graven image.. to bow down or worship.
Now days most people don’t carve little “gods” out, but they do make graven images with their mind. If you have done this you have broken the second commandment.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
When you use His name carelessly, ex. Oh my G.., etc.. then you are breaking the third commandment.
4. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
How many days have you spit in the face of the God who gave you life instead of taking time to thank Him and give Him the credit that He is due? You have broken the fourth commandment.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
Did you parents have to tell you just twice to do something that you should have done the first time they told you? You have broken the fith commandment.
6. You shall not murder.
You say you haven’t done this, but the Bible says if you hate your brother..or if you are angry at someone without cause then you have violated this commandment.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
You might think you havent’ broken this one, but Jesus said that whoever looks at a women with lust has commited adultery already. You have broken the seventh commandment.
8. You shall not steal.
You have stolen something..even if it was small..the value of what it was is not important in God’s eyes. You have broken this commandment.
9. You shall not give false testimony.
You have lied.
10. You shall not covet.
You have desired something that belongs to someone else I assure you that you have broken all 10 of God’s commandments…
Well.. so have I, but this is the only morality test we need to take. Better now than on the Day of Judgement. The Bible says that all liars shall have their part in the Lake of Fire, and that no theif and no adulterer shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven. You might say that you don’t believe in God’s Law. However, it doesn’t matter what you “believe”. If you were to put a gun to my head and pulled the trigger I would be dead no matter how loudly I screamed that I don’t “beleive” in bullets. I know you’ll have some “witty” comeback because you would catch greif from your peers if you didn’t. But please take time to read this carefully because God did something for you so that He would not have to give you justice on the Day of Judgement. He sent His Son to die in your place if you will Repent (turn from your sins) and put your faith in Jesus Christ. We broke God’s Law..all of us.. and Jesus paid our fine. So if we reject that, then God will give us our day in court. You won’t like it. Again, I don’t care what you believe. Facts are facts. God is not a liar.
Charles, have you ever wondered why 40% of the commandments are purely devoted to protecting Christianity? Not making the world a better place, not helping you live a happy, healthy life, not stopping you doing something terrible, but protecting the religion. If I was a God, and a truly selfless God, I wouldn’t care if people were worshipping me or not, I’d rather them not commit atrocities. That’s a selfish, egomaniacal God that wrote those commandments. Either that, or they were written by people who had something to lose.
Please, for the good of all of us, start to question.
>>>If you were to put a gun to my head and pulled the trigger I would be dead no matter how loudly I screamed that I don’t “beleive†in bullets.<<<
There is actual evidence of the existence of bullets. Screaming that I do not believe in them is silly.
However, I can see a Christian trying really hard to have faith that God will stop the bullets. Good luck with that. Personally, I am going to duck and run.
My dear friend how could you call the God who gave you life egomaniacal? He has given you many gifts. Instead of thanking Him for them, you use them for evil just like I did. He gave you eyes to see, a tounge to taste and speak with, ears to hear. But insteand of using them for good, you use them to look with lust, speak lies and listen to terrible things. He has let you live even though you curse Him and have sinned against Him continually. That’s a great deal of patience and kindness He is showing you. He gave you life and He can take it away, but He is still giving you time. Please repent before it is too late, death comes suddenly for many. I know this seems pointless to you now, but one day, probably when it’s too late, you’ll understand. I pray though, that He’ll open your eyes before it is too late.
Charles. First of all, thanks for commenting again. Second, when all is said and done it’s very difficult to describe the Christian depiction of God as anything other than Egomaniacal. In your words, you believe God gave me life, but he can take it away at any time. In that case, is it really gift? I think not. It’s more a way of wielding power over those that perceive this belief to be reality.
Dont you question why, out of the ten commandments, the ten most important tenets of Christian life, such a large propotion involve worshipping God? Surely there are more important things. God wants you to worship him, build elaborate buildings in his honor, devote your life to him. His ego must be demanding this. If I said those things, you would say I was egomaniacal, so why isn’t your God subject to the same critiscizms? Is it because the commandments you so happily follow forbid any questioning? Is it because they are written such that they perpetuate the lies and deception? If you really sat down and thought about it. And I mean genuinely thought about it, you’ll find it is.
QUESTION: If there is no GOD, that means no judgement when this life is over, and basically we evolved from animals,so,my question is…why don`t we all just steal when we want, kill when we want, & what`s so bad about rape, murder or anything else if we are only to answer to ourselves? petifilia would also be a personal choice people sholdn`t look down on you for(according to atheists)…right?
Don’t feed the troll.
Charles, if you argue the existence for “god” which has such profound and unimaginable implications (that each in turn fall on their face) – please at least allow for proper spelling. “Their” and “Their” are not the same word – one is a word, the other is not. Same goes for theif and beleif, dim-wit.
Should I be authoring this post with some broody uber-creator glancing over my shoulder with divine wrath in mind, he’d be so pissed off at my poor grammar whilsy acting as his representative that he’d strike me dead for good cause.
Please, when making an argument at least show respect for the claimant for whom you make a case, in this case “god”. I know god does not exist because he would have smote your sorry ass the 2nd time you misspelled a word most of us knew how to write by the time we were eight.
If you can’t comprehend English, I am not surprised you believe in imaginary friends. Just keep them to yourself to spare you this embarrassment. You FAIL.
Grue,
H
that was kinda small minded. I`m not saying bible god exists,however, if someone believes he is their father,you can`t possibly say how he would respond to them for anything, and vice versa. you don`t know their father & they don`t know your`s. are you guys debating or is this comedy central? I need to read substantive debate(maybe this isn`t the place)
Hmm… I got numbers 1, 2, 15, 19, and 20. So I got a 5. I’m such a bad person…
Quote: “Have you ever spoke the name of our Lord in vain?”
*ahem* What you meant to say was “Have you ever SPOKEN the name of our Lord in vain?” Have spoken, was the verb conjugation you meant to write.
Look, dude, believe, don’t believe, I don’t really give a shit, but nobody will take you seriously if you write this sloppily and carelessly.
Pay attention to how you say what you say, or nobody will pay attention the anything you say.
Of all the things in this questionnaire, you had a problem with that? The questionnaire was taken from the original site, spelling and grammatical mistakes included. I found this tough, being a part-time pedant. I hoped it would help emphasise the absurdity of using a questionnaire like this in the classroom, much less a science class.
I particularly baulked at the use of the “word” unchristian.
And you’re right, no one will pay attention to theists until they get a grasp of language (and logic, rational debate, the need for evidence etc.).
I came here to see what each side of this debate had to say & you guys are actually making grammar jokes…the school system sucks;everywhere. if proper grammar and punctuation was criteria for a discussion, most discussion would exclude most of the world. I`m really love to read intelligent debate(more of that…less grammar lessons)
Amen!
“And you’re right, no one will pay attention to theists until they get a grasp of language (and logic, rational debate, the need for evidence etc.).”
Alright, here we go.
The Kalam Cosmological Argument:
1.) Everything that BEGINS to exist has a cause.
2.) The Universe began to exist.
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3.) The Universe had a cause.
Now premise (1) is obvious. Nothing comes into existence out of nothing. You don’t sit in your room and wonder if a tiger is going to appear out of nowhere and eat you. Even in black holes protons and such fluctuate into existence but in black holes you have 1.) space, and 2.) energy. Nothing comes from Nothing, Nothing ever does.
Now, premise (2) is also pretty obvious based on SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE and PHILOSOPHICAL ARGUMENTATION. First, scientifically, the universe having a beginning roughtly 15 billion years ago is pretty much universally recognized by scientists. You can take the Big Bang model, for example, we all know that one. And secondly, you can look at the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics which tells us that the usable energy in the universe is deteriorating so obviously at one point in the distant past it was all usable. And because there is less and less usable energy we can see that the universe is not eternal or else the amount of usable energy would be constant.
Philosophically, if the universe were eternal then you would have an infinate number of past events and never come to “today.”
So, we see that the universe begane to exist, so obviously the universe had a cause because things don’t pop into existence out of nothing. Now, we must remember that time, space, energy and matter all came into existence at the Big Bang. There was complete nothingness. Not even dead space. Read any book on cosmology and you’ll get the same information. Now, if things don’t come into existence by themselves, and there was no physical or spacial existence, then we know the universe was created, which, of course, would mean there needs to be a creator( and before you try to argue that God needs a creator, it’s been refuted for over 2000 years. If God needed a cause, which according the Monotheism He doesnt, then there would be an infinate regress and we would never come to a first cause which is extremely unscientific) which implies God.
Now, based on the evidence that the universe had a beginning, who uses more reason and logic? The atheist, who says, like Quentin Smith, “The universe is all there is, all there was, and all there ever will be.?” Or, the theist, who says “Everything that comes into existence needs a cause.” What’s more rational to believe? The atheist might argue for “multi-verses” which is completely unwarranted and has no evidence whatsoever. And before you say there is no evidence for God, remember i just gave you the evidence from cosmology.
Another argument for God’s existence is the Argument from Morality.
1.)If objective moral values exist, then God exists.
2.) Objective moral values do exist.
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3.) Therefore, God exists.
This is a basic principle of logic called modus ponens. Let’s look at premises (1) and (2).
If objective moral values do, in fact, exist, then it inexplicably follows that God also exists. For without God, there would be no standard for objective moral values (i.e., an objective standard for right and wrong acttions, an objective standard for “oughts†and “ought nots.†Now, you may say that objective moral values DO NOT, in fact, exist. And if you believe that they do not exist then you must believe that beating a defenseless child is not objectively wrong. It may be wrong for you, but for a drunk father it’s okay, right? Or we can look at Nazi Germany. If the Nazi’s carried out their plans and succeeded in either killing or brainwashing every person on earth to believe that what they did was the right thing to do, would it, in fact, have been the right thing to do? So, if you will agree that you shouldn’t rape a child under any circumstances then you agree that objective moral values do exist. And if you agree that objective moral values exist, then logically and inescapably, you must concede that God exists.
The reason God must exist in the event that objective moral values exist is that outside of a Moral Lawgiver, there would be no objective morality. If you look at morality from a naturalistic perspective then it is completely subjective (in fact, morality would be equivalent to your taste in music). There would be no overriding factor, given naturalism, which would cause things to be objectively right or objectively wrong. You saying murder and rape is not good would be like me saying guacamole is not good.
So, either the atheist must reject objective morality, or come up with a naturalistic explanation. And the atheist saying sociobiologists can trace social ethics to different groups of people and show how certain moral values change among different people at different times doesn’t change the fact of objective moral values existing. That would be what is called the genetic fallacy.
We could also talk about the extreme improbablity of life spontaneously coming from non-life. It is completely ridiculous to think that a bunch of non-living chemicals could turn into living cells without Intelligent intervention. You must remember that even the brightest scientists today can’t create life from non-life (which should show that if INTELLIGENT scientists can’t do it, non-intelligent mutations can’t do it either). And then we also have the Cambrian explosion which completely ruins Darwinian evolution. We have fully formed life forms with advanced physial traits coming into the fossil record fully formed without any trace of gradual change. And also the impossibility of conscousness coming from non-conscousness.
So, again, what’s more rational? Atheism or theism?
And then we could look at rationality itself. There is no justification for rationality in an atheistic worldview. Even Darwin pointed this out. He said he had no more right in thinking his beliefs were justified than thinking the beliefs of an ape are justified. Evolution can’t account for true beliefs. Evolution is based on survival, not truth. Really think hard about this. What makes it possible to believe that what you believe is true given naturalism? Given theism, it’s extremely easy to believe that we have true knowledge because we were created by a rational being and we are capable of being rational. Why would a human be any more rational than an ape on the naturalistic worldview?
So, what’s more rational? Atheism, or theism?
We could also look at the teleological argument (the fine-tuning of the universe). How is it that the universe randomly popped into being out of nothing with the EXACT necessary quantitative conditions to produce life? The Atheist might say “chance,” which isn’t even an actual thing. “Chance” doesn’t do anything, it’s just a word describing probabilities, it doesn’t have capabilites of manipulating or altering any sort of conditions. The atheist, actually, relies very heavily on chance and faith. Faith is something everybody has, like it or not. You don’t know with 100 percent certainty that there was a yesterday. You don’t know with 100 percent certainty that a bridge that you’re about to cross over will hold your car. You don’t know with 100 percent certainty that you’ll live another day, and yet you have faith you will, and so you plan ahead.
In the Bible, faith is not blind. “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE for things not seen.” We have much evidence for believing in God. That’s why only about 5% of the entire worlds population are atheists. Even in America, the percentage is no higher than 11%. So to say that theism is irrational is just ridiculous. I would say atheism is irrational, and justifiably so.
The problem with worldviews is that you can find whatever you WANT to find. You can look at the Big Bang and say, “it just happened” or you can look at the origin of life and say “it just happened, we’ll figure it out someday (sounds like “naturalism of the gaps”), and you can look at the fine-tuning of the universe and say it just happened. Well, try justifying your beliefs against a theist who understands what they believe and how the world around them works. Ranting and raving about how much you hate religion and God isn’t proof that either of them are false or non-existent. Philosophically, in this day of scientific breakthroughs, it is just completely illogical to be an atheist.
OK, I am not too good at this but I will try. First let me define my terms. “Begging the question” is when someone claims something to be true without giving evidence. In short, they say that something is true because they say it is true.
“Nothing comes into existence out of nothing.”
This is begging the question. Something may very well come from nothing. I will let this fellow answer how that can happen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo
Even if only nothing comes from nothing, one needs to show evidence of that. Simply saying it does not make it true.
“2.) Objective moral values do exist.”
This is also begging the question. Please show me some objective moral values. You do not get to point at a holy book and say “There they are!”; you need to show that they are truly objective, and not just a complex system of situational ethics. For example “Thou shall not kill” has a large number of exceptions in the bible and a number of times when killing is actually demanded.
Beating (and even executing) children has been considered moral for a very long time, such as in Deuteronomy 21:18-21. Have you never head the phrase “spare the rod, spoil the child”?
Genocide is immoral? It isn’t in certain circumstances, according to 1 Samuel 15:2-3.
Rape? Well, in certain circumstances you get executed, in others you pay a fine and get married (Deuteronomy 22:23-24, Deuteronomy 22:28-29)
“the fine-tuning of the universe”
Again, this is begging the question. You are simply declaring that the universe is fine-tuned for life and expecting it to be true. Considering that over 99% of the universe (and at least 80% of the planet Earth) is hostile to life (at least human life) seems to bring into question the fine-tuning of the universe for life.
“Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE for things not seen.”
This describes an emotional state, a feeling. Feelings are by definition subjective. Subjective feelings do not give objective evidence. Once again, simply declaring that something is evidence, does not make it evidence. On cannot reliably “feel” one’s way through a calculus exam, for example. Would you fly on a 747 if you knew the head mechanic “felt” his way through the repairs?
“naturalism of the gaps”
The only rational response to a lack of evidence about how something happened is the phrase “I don’t know how it happened”. To say “I have no evidence, so it must have been a super-powerful supernatural entity who did it” is irrational.
“Why would a human be any more rational than an ape on the naturalistic worldview?”
Humans are very irrational. We do all kinds of irrational things, such as the housing debt bubble that helped cause the recession we are now experiencing. Look up the large number of psychological studies on irrational human behavior.
Your statement is also begging the question. How do you know that apes are more irrational than humans? Given the tools they have to work with (lack of speech ability, relatively clumsy hands, inability to swim, a lack of understanding of how to make complex tools, etc) they may be very rational.
“Given theism, it’s extremely easy to believe that we have true knowledge because we were created by a rational being and we are capable of being rational.”
Yes exactly, it is very easy to believe that you have true knowledge. This is why “only about 5% of the entire worlds population are atheists.”
atheists rag on christians all the time,sighting that they can`t defend their point;so I`m confused…can you explain how something comes from nothing or not?…is that why you posted a link to another person yhat you believe has this knowledge? (not accusing;just curious)
In the beginning Man created God and what a mess it caused